Ballroom style
- Thread starter Shaka
- Start date
Ah... missed this. You already made the point. (and perhaps someone earlier did too)
And that sums up why it isn't Argentine Tango.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Errr, OK....
Firstly, "frame" as a concept is not really relevant to AT, so that's quite believable.
Possibly. All I can do is comment on what I see, and in that video it's painfully obvious that their basics are plainly wrong. Not just "poor", but "wrong". And that's not something I'd say about the standard AT performance.
I disagree, but I think that's simply a question of taste.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
It's like a scab you just have to pick at... ok one more post.
Dancesport doesn't have the market on projecting and showing off the human form. Look at any good ballet, modern dance, caberet, etc. Heck even stage actors study how to project to an audience. Comparing social AT or even teachers showing off on youtube is hardly a fair comparison. Fantasia dancers on the other hand do learn to project. They learn how to orient themselves such that their best side is to the audience and how to show off their lines. But what they do still manages to look like tango, because it has its own unique technique and look.
The first performance in this thread is ballroom showdance, not tango showdance. Period.
Dancesport doesn't have the market on projecting and showing off the human form. Look at any good ballet, modern dance, caberet, etc. Heck even stage actors study how to project to an audience. Comparing social AT or even teachers showing off on youtube is hardly a fair comparison. Fantasia dancers on the other hand do learn to project. They learn how to orient themselves such that their best side is to the audience and how to show off their lines. But what they do still manages to look like tango, because it has its own unique technique and look.
The first performance in this thread is ballroom showdance, not tango showdance. Period.
But it doesn't replace instruction though does it? Don't you still need the actual course as well as the syllabus? Does the ballroom syllabus provide enough information that one can apply what is in it on their own without having a teacher and still become a good ballroom dancer?
Last edited by a moderator:
nottomention
New Member
This is only true if you are impatient and wish to try to imitate the look of good dancing, without taking time to first learn how to dance well. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in ballroom competitions who are that impatient. But please don't mistake what they resort to in their inexperience, with how it feels when done properly.
nottomention
New Member
At a more advanced level no longer constrained by school figures, ballroom is lead step by step rather than figure by figure. Ballroom tango especially - it does not have the same kind of continuity of movement as the waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep, so almost any step can alter direction. And even in the momentum dances, an intention to move in a given direction can still evolve in flight to a very different conclusion than was in mind when it was begun.
I agree, but we should only whisper such things here. It just sounds too much like another dance, and you will upset the locals...
Good grief, no.
There seems to be a slight difference in usage of the terminology between US & UK too. Here, the syllabus is just a schedule summarising the content of the amateur tests and the professional exams. The actual content is to be found in the technique manuals, substantial volumes, crammed with content in a highly abbreviated form that most amateur dancers would not be able to use, effectively, without professional assistance either.
Teaching societies differ in their approaches. The ISTD still have schedules of standardised figures that are expected in the amateur tests at Bronze, Silver & Gold (& beyond), whereas the IDTA doesn't specify any particular figures, but sets its levels by reference to the attainment of particular technique goals (eg the usage of correct footwork, timing, style & musicality). Traditionally, there was an equivalence of syllabus figures between amateur bronze & professional associate, amateur silver & professional licentiate and amateur gold & professional fellowship (not in standard, or course, just in scope of the syllabus).
Amateur tests (medal tests) are available in AT too, but I can't imagine the uptake is very high. I don't know what the syllabus requirements are in the ISTD tests, but the IDTA ones do not prescribe any figures, although the syllabus 'suggests' figures (to be found described in detail in the accompanying technique manual) that might be appropriate to each level, and on the DVD that accompanies the technique manual, there are demonstration dances at each level, presenting a model 'routine' (anathema - I know) at each level.
There is an IDTA Tango Teacher's Diploma, too, which takes all of the figures from the suggested bronze group and three from the silver group. If anyone is interested, those figures are named as follows:
- The Basic Step (8CB)
- Front Eights
- Back Eights
- Cross Basic (8CB in cross system)
- Change of Direction
- Sandwich
- Rock Turn
- Cross Body Basic
- Displacement from Front Eight
- Cross Basic with Displacement
- Sweep
- Half Moon (Media Luna)
The medal test system is about making money for dance schools, mainly, and while lots of people think that gold is some sort of high standard, it really isn't at all. The IDTA BR test series has 24 levels, of which B/S/G are but 1 2 & 3. If you hold the International Supreme Certificate (24), you have spent a lot of money, but can probably dance rather well.
AND the Soc. and Examiners.. dance schools only profit by teaching, and thats the business they are in .
As a prof who has been both Examiner and Studio owner, the financial benefits( exams) are minimal in comparison to all the other normal workaday studio happenings .Even as an Examiner, the amount of work I was offered ( US ), did not impact my income to any great extent . And in fact, the UK market is flooded with examiners in all the branches, which again, limits earning power from that source alone .
In todays market place, the medal system for exam purposes, is way down the list for most teachers ( particularly in the States in Indies. ) .
The Chain schools in the States however, do promote it, and use it as a sales "tool " quite effectively I might add.
I agree that 'medal classes' are far less common than they were, but the tests are still the focus of many private lessons (in UK studios at least). However, I had in mind the point that money-making was their object: rather than being to produce well trained and proficient dancers. All that ticking off of figures, and having a breadth of knowledge, rather than depth, together with the expectation that 'routines' should get progressively harder is to blame here, and the examiners and the teachers share the responsibility (along with the expectations of their students) for this distortion.
The IDTA's amateur syllabus is the most helpful, in my view, in that beyond Silver (where in BR a minimum of six figures should be presented) the level descriptors representing further progress are entirely in relation to the quality of the dancing. In theory, a well-constructed 'Silver' routine would be perfectly appropriate for all but perhaps the very highest levels, as long as the technique got better each time. Lots of teachers seem to 'sell' the next level on the bogus premise that newer, flashier routines have to be learned. It is not so.
The more I think about it, the less value there could be in these type of tests in AT, and my personal view is that existing examiner training woefully fails to equip the examiners for the task (but that might improve over time, I suppose). Were it otherwise, the young couple's show dance might still have been marked reasonably highly: 'Commended', perhaps, but there were too many fundamental technique failings to merit more, and they broke the golden rule that the figures selected should show the character of the dance and be within the candidates' ability to dance them easily and with taste and style.
It ALWAYS depends upon the teachers approach to training. As to making money, nothing wrong with that, IF it is in concert with good teaching .
As to the "kids", thats exactly what they are.. doing what they were told to do. Children have little discernment,( and even many adults ! ) .
I think more to the point is this.. getting children involved at an early age ( as I did ) may keep them in the "fold " for many yrs to come.
What do others think is the 'right' age to start dancing AT?