Beginner leads and experienced follows

[blue]

I guess most of us agree that a beginner follower benefit a lot from dancing with skilled leaders every now and then. Is the opposite also true - do a beginner leader benefit from dancing with skilled followers?

I know we had this discussion before, but not in tango settings.

I read a discussion on an email list, where two women had opposit opinions on the matter. Both of them teach. (How strange that it was the women who discussed this matter, not the men!) One said that beginner leaders actually need beginner followers, because skilled followers follow too smoothly - including many little signals that the leaders do not know that they acually give. The other said that no, beginner leaders benefit a lot from dancing with advanced followers. Since the men have more to learn anyhow, and since there are too few of them and meny women who already dance would like a dance partner, she was speculating in having an extra beginner course de luxe for men - where they were to dance only with followers who had been dancing for some time. The follower's interest in the business would be the abiliy to snatch a talented beginner and train him - oh well, plus maybe some discount on something else I guess.

I am not sure she will actually ever try the idea. But what do you think, would the average beginner leader learn faster with advanced followers than with other newbies? Is there a difference between talanted beginners and not so talanted beginners in this respect?

 

[ReneeJoan]

Yes, I believe it helps beginning "leaders" to dance with more experienced "followers." You pair up too beginners in a class and it's just a recipe for frustration. "You're not doing the step right." "You're not leading it right." "You're off-balance." "You're pulling me." The truth is, neither one of them is doing it right, and they're both doing so much wrong, it's hard to know where to start to straighten them out. Usually, the best place to begin is to split them up and I'll take the guy and Felix will take the woman. After a few minutes, they BOTH can feel how the movement is supposed to feel like, how it's supposed to flow, how the weight is suppposed to shift, what he has to say to get me to do such and such, what signals I'm looking for. Then, when we put them back together, it goes much better -- until the next step.

Often, I get asked to dance by beginners, and they are apologizing all over themselves for their lack of ability. I always tell them it's okay, I'm very good with beginners. And I am. And suddenly, they're like, "Hey, I can actually DANCE with you. And you're so good. Maybe this is something I can learn to do after all." That boost in their confidence is so great to see. It means they won't give up, they'll keep studying, keep learning, because they know this is something they CAN do. I like that. It's like a little gift I can give people in return for all the people who patiently danced with me while I was learning.

Whenever you dance with someone who's much more experienced and skilled than you, man or woman, you will be able to dance your best. Do that enough, and your dancing WILL improve. So, yes, I absolutely think it helps "leaders" to dance with better followers. It softens their "lead." They learn that they don't HAVE to jerk their partners around to get them to do something, don't have to clutch them to keep them from running away, or hang on them to maintain their balance. Just a thought, and I go. A simple shift of weight, a light caressing touch, and I'll do whatever I'm asked. It's a joy to be able to give that gift to a man.

Be bold, men, and ask those advanced ladies. The vast majority will accept and it'll help you improve. If they refuse to dance with a beginner, all I can say is they must have AWFULLY short memories.

Renee

 

[honeydragon]

I agree. Beginner "leads" definitely benefit by dancing with more experienced "follows", whether it be in a classroom setting or on the real dance floor. The experienced follow knows that this is a long-term investment meaning that if this lead enjoys the dance, this means more leads for all of the follows in the future. -- Just half joking there, but personally speaking, in my AT class, there's around 16-20 women and 4 men that show up on a regular basis. The women in class are started to learn how to lead now.

Like Renee said. Beginners always need the attention and encouragement from the more experienced and advanced dancers to help bring up their level of confidence and love the dance even more.

An experienced follower and an advanced follower can mean 2 different things. An experienced follower, knows how to calm down a nervous first timer and beginners, knows how to correct gently and has lots of patience. I hate to bring this up too, but an experienced follower also knows if this 'potential lead' really wants to dance or if he is just a perv looking for a cheap thrill. A good experienced follower can convert the perv.

About 6 months after I starting learning AT, I was having a wonderful time and we had a new beginner session starting up to hopefully get more leads into our class. I remember one guy that I paired up with, he had this little smile/smirk on his face and his first comment was: "I can't wait to get you into close-position." Then we got in to close-position and I just whispered, "I guess I should tell you that I was born a man." He jumped away, and I just laughed, and he realised that it was a joke. We are now good friends and he stuck with the class and he is very serious about AT now.

 

[newbie]

I'd say it's useful for the beginning leaders when the follower is really good, not just a bit more advanced. I had some bad experiences with women with 4-5 years of A.T, who would ignore my lead and go by themselves into leans, saludos, low boleos, and even would take charge of the lead, i.e they would lead me. From an onlooker's point of view it looked great but for me it was horrible, I felt I was only a faire-valoir.

As for the "De Luxe" classes, we have in our class one woman who has attended the whole 4-year cycle of A.T lessons given by our teachers and is now doing the cycle again, from the beginning, as a leader. When there is a shortage of women she's only too happy to "help" by playing the follower's role again. Could be nice, but the poor leaders who have to lead her are suffocated by an endless flow of advices, orders, and corrections. It's stressful, somehow I prefer to sit than being with her.

Even with teachers it can be awful when (probably wanting to help) they don't really follow but execute whole sequences in auto-pilot mode.

On the opposite I also know a couple of teachers who will never "help" the leader; if there is no lead they won't move, they'll just wait. I like this.
I've also danced twice with really experienced followers ( portenas) and it was useful because they actually followed what I was leading, and made their nice additional embellishments only at times when it was not disturbing for me.

 

[blue]

in my AT class, there's around 16-20 women and 4 men that show up on a regular basis.

Ugh. That was some unbalance... (btw, welcome to DF! )

You pair up too beginners in a class and it's just a recipe for frustration. "You're not doing the step right." "You're not leading it right." "You're off-balance." "You're pulling me." The truth is, neither one of them is doing it right, and they're both doing so much wrong, it's hard to know where to start to straighten them out.

I can related to that... still there is where most people have to start, unless they want to pay for private lessons. Or possible, the de luxe version of classes from the start... for both roles. In aikido, many dojos (schools) take beginners straight into the normal class... and while it can be kind of intimidating, the beginners get a feeling for what it is all about a lot quicker this way. I takes some patience from the rest of the crowd, though, and some energy to spend on the beginners. As many beginners come and go, it is easily understood that this way of recieving beginners can be exhausting in the long run.

Aikido often have as a part of the culture that you should help your juniors, and it is stressed that you learn a lot from it yourself. While that is true, and this sprit motivates people to train with the beginners, it often ends up with people overteaching... pretty much like newbie describes. When the system works, it is great though. I have yet to see dance environments with this kind of spirit - not that it exists everywhere in aikido either. Far from it!

As for the "De Luxe" classes, we have in our class one woman who has attended the whole 4-year cycle of A.T lessons given by our teachers and is now doing the cycle again, from the beginning, as a leader. When there is a shortage of women she's only too happy to "help" by playing the follower's role again. Could be nice, but the poor leaders who have to lead her are suffocated by an endless flow of advices, orders, and corrections. It's stressful, somehow I prefer to sit than being with her.

That sounds more like the lady in question does not understand her role - and I don't mean the dance role here (lead/follow) but her role as a student in class. Actually one of the guys I had most difficult to dance with in beginner's AT class was the most experienced leader in class, who they had asked to come help out the shortage of leaders... because he like gave me orders what to do (including getting into closer embrace. Ugh). Maybe this is one good thing about people doing just one role in dancing - they don't give me advice all the time since those I dance with generally don't know how to follow. :twisted:

 

[ReneeJoan]

"A little learning is a dangerous thing . . . ." Yeah, it is really tempting to "play the expert." You learn a little bit, get a little skill, and suddenly, you're showing off, telling the newbies all the inner secrets of the 34th degree of knowledge. Forgiveable (up to a point), I suppose, because people are really just trying to share their passion with a new convert. I've fallen into that trap too, until one day my teacher caught me at it, and gave me one of the sharpest reprimands I've ever heard fall from his kind, patient, gentle tongue. I couldn't have felt worse if he'd taken out a whip and thrashed me with it. Since then, I've tried to can it.

And just to show you all what a compleat hypocrit I can be, probably the ONE thing a guy can do that is sure to piss me off on the dance floor is to appoint himself my teacher. But since I don't like it when men do that to me, I try to be very conscious of that and keep my mouth shut, and just do my basics as good as I can and help my partner in that silent way. Sometimes they come out and ask me, and then I figure it's okay to say something. Otherwise, I really try to not "show off" and "skylark" by trotting out my "superior" knowledge.

Besides. Every so often, I get a much needed lesson in humility. Last night, dancing with the Guest Instructor, Maximiliano, I was right back at square one. All my improvement, all my hard work since the last time he was visiting here in LA -- out the window. Humiliating to say the least. But I just let it go, accepted the fact that I was still VERY much a baby, and tried to learn something, instead of trying to impress him by showing off. Gosh. Am I EVER going to get it right?

 

[Sagitta]

Showing off!!!

All I really care about is one thing. Doing my best to make sure I give my partner the best possible time and trying in this process to show my partner the transforming nature of connected dancing.

I'm a mere beginner and give advice. Relax. Feel. Don't worry about steps, firmness of grasp etc etc. If you try to connect to your partner almost everything else is immaterial in my opinion. I'll take connection with a person who cannot do one step of salsa anyday vs a salsera who can do anything I give her but no connection.

 

[bordertangoman]

I'm gonna sit on the fence on this one.

I remember my first dance as a beginner with an experienced follower. It was like getting into a sportscar when you've learnt to drive on a tractor. So smooooooooooth. ( later I discovered she was one of those lucky people who have naturally good balance & posture.)

Did I learn anything? Only that it could be amazing. I was quite happy learning with my peers and getting coaching from the teachers.

 

[Lockstep]

All I can say is that from the beginning I've been dancing a lot with a latin girl who already knew instinctively most of the moves, and was just in the class to get an understanding of what she was actually doing. For all intents and purposes, she's very advanced, and in my personal experience it has helped me out a *lot*. it allows the leader, I think, more freedom in practicing beyond the basics, which would be the limit while dancing with another beginner. Now, I can actually try new things we haven't technically been taught yet, develop a bit of own style etc. And yeah, the fact that she knows how it ought to feel helps as well, with the regular moves

 

[Patapouf]

I think a beginner leader can definitely benefit from dancing with an experienced follower, that is, providing that the follower does not appoint herself his teacher and start telling him what to do, correcting him, teaching extra stuffs the teacher is not teaching. I agree with blue and newbie that this can make things worst.

I sometimes help out at my instructor's beginning lesson, I will do exactly what the leader's leading and seldom say much, unless I was asked if he was doing it correct, or how it felt. I never criticize them and never correct them too much other than obvious mistakes in foot patterns and stuffs like that. After all, it is not my job to teach, and of course the bigger question is, am I good enough to teach. I think the leaders in the class do enjoy dancing with me as they always ask for me. So from their point of view, I think they do enjoy and benefit from dancing with a more experienced follow.

 

[randomMysh]

i think there are really two separate situations here, with two appropriate courses of action. there's social dancing and there is class.
i think unsolicited advice is practically never ok at a social dance. if he's horrible, get through the song and let him learn in class. early on i tried dishing out advice at dances and it was inevitably bad. no one can absorb new information in that setting, and that's not what people are there for. so i keep my mouth shut and smile
class is a different story. if something is glaringly wrong and the teacher is gonna be busy for a while, or if technique isn't the focus of the class, i might ask my partner if it's ok for me to make a suggestion. if he says yes, i'll pick ONE thing to say that i think is the most important (usually it's to relax the shoulders) and compliment the hell out of him if he's even remotely following my suggestion. i've had those know-it-alls as class partners before, and yeah, after about the fifth "suggestion" you just wanna punch him.
on the other hand, when i was one of the practice leaders for my college dance team, i would purposefully pick the cockiest beginner leads and make them slooooowly dance me through something like a rumba underarm turn and analyze exactly what they're trying to lead and what they're leading in reality. and i mean every single step. usually they were amazed at what they were *actually* leading! i would never do that to someone who's just starting out and is obviously intimidated as it is.
bottom line, i think that yes, beginner leads benefit from dancing with more experienced follows, but only if the follow tailors her response to both the lead and the situation. really, the same thing i'd expect from an experienced lead dancing with a newbie follow.

 

[new-ish]

I remember my first dance as a beginner with an experienced follower. It was like getting into a sportscar when you've learnt to drive on a tractor.

I think it's more like "student driver in a Ferrari" you just know it's a real waste. Experienced followers can usually interpret beginner attempts at leading better than most, so you also don't really learn the art of leading with the experienced follower.

For new leads I think:

1. Develop a rock (like Gibralter) solid basic. I think group classes are good for this.

2. Private lessons. Expensive, but if you are serious about dancing, there is no other way to learn to lead.

3. Learn four or five basic moves. Get these as solid as your basic.

4. DO NOT GIVE UP. Some day you will become a dancer and that is worth whatever it takes to get there.

 

[madmaximus]

Leading and following are two very different skills, and incongruent enough to make a good generality. (I also think that the notion of lead/follow needs to be outgrown by a dancer in order to become really proficient in partner dance--but that discussion is for another day).

However... this was just too yummy a question to leave alone...
so IMO--

While it is beneficial for a lead to dance with an advanced follow, it will slow down the rate of learning.

It is, without a doubt, exhilarating to dance with an advanced follow. It makes a lead realize how a movement can evolve. It is intoxicatingly good for the ego (and causes some amount of hubris as some have described).

But it also misrepresents to the lead the true level of his skills and how effective his movement or capability is. Because oftentimes, the follower accomodates for his mistakes. This misapprehension by the lead becomes all too painfully apparent when dancing with a follower with the same level (or lower) skill. The frustration often manifests itself by yanking and pushing the poor follower around. (Oh yes, we've all been guilty of this at one point or another--at least I have).

Someone already mentioned that this (thread or) question should also be taken in its context (class or social dance). I would add a third: practice. I think one should learn to dance in a class (group or solo). Practice is where one should review--and improve one's skills. And social dancing is where one reaps the benefits of all that learning. The impact of dancing with an advanced follow will vary depending on any one of these situations.

An advanced lead can guide the beginner follow through a movement with more ease than when the skill levels are reversed. But inevitably, the difficulty for the beginning lead is in the act of making the decision (of what move or figure to do) and guiding the follow by leading correctly. This is a skill that must be honed by giving a follower a reasonably accurate picture of what to do. In this regard, a follower at the same level will be more beneficial to the beginning lead. A sympathetic advanced follower--in the role of a partner and NOT a teacher--will usually only serve to blur the lead's understanding of that picture.

A more advanced follow will be able to respond with accuracy to a fuzzy lead, but a beginning follow will need an accurate lead to respond accurately.

madmaximus

 

[blue]

A more advanced follow will be able to respond with accuracy to a fuzzy lead, but a beginning follow will need an accurate lead to respond accurately.

Where does this come in for the three sets: class, practice and social dancing (milonga)?

Shouldn't the advanced follow dancing with a newbie during a milonga compensate for mistakes a little bit - but not in class, and not during practice?

 

[delamusica]

But inevitably, the difficulty for the beginning lead is in the act of making the decision (of what move or figure to do) and guiding the follow by leading correctly. This is a skill that must be honed by giving a follower a reasonably accurate picture of what to do. In this regard, a follower at the same level will be more beneficial to the beginning lead. A sympathetic advanced follower--in the role of a partner and NOT a teacher--will usually only serve to blur the lead's understanding of that picture.

Not always true. If the follower is only doing what she knows the lead is trying to do, then yes. But many beginning leads make a lot of extraneous movements that can feel like the beginnings of leads. A good follower will react to them, thereby making the newbie leader aware of the extra signals he was giving.