Beginner leads and experienced follows

[ReneeJoan]

Dear Madmaximus:

I, too, do not subscribe to the concept of "leading" or "following." I use these terms on this discussion board for simplicity and clarity, because that's how everyone else refers to them, but I don't believe in it myself.

As my teacher put it, "leading and following implies dominance and submission," which he says has no place in dancing or in life. He prefers to teach "guiding" or "inviting" and "response," and as you said, BOTH partners are free to invite the other to respond, so that it becomes a balanced partnership, with two people creating something beautiful together, instead of one person giving orders and the other blindly obeying.

Of course, this is much harder. It requires a higher level of connection, of listening, and responsiveness. It requires awareness and thinking. But my best dances have been with partners who gently invite me to do something, and I respond, and counter with an invitation of my own, rather than him insisting on dictating what we do, he responds to my invitation, then issues a new invitation. It becomes a conversation, rather than a speech, with each partner listening and responding to the other. It opens the door to so much creativity.

A lot of men have discovered to their chagrin that I do not follow, and if a guy insists on leading, he'll find I can get pretty mule-y and uncooperative, and that I am anything but a dishrag dancer. Those dances usually end with me being as mad at him for being a pig, as he is with me for being a stubborn mule. But if an man asks me nicely, I can be one of the most responsive, tender partners he could ask for.

Renee

 

[bordertangoman]

Dear Madmaximus:

I, too, do not subscribe to the concept of "leading" or "following." I use these terms on this discussion board for simplicity and clarity, because that's how everyone else refers to them, but I don't believe in it myself.

As my teacher put it, "leading and following implies dominance and submission," which he says has no place in dancing or in life. He prefers to teach "guiding" or "inviting" and "response," and as you said, BOTH partners are free to invite the other to respond, so that it becomes a balanced partnership, with two people creating something beautiful together, instead of one person giving orders and the other blindly obeying.

Of course, this is much harder. It requires a higher level of connection, of listening, and responsiveness. It requires awareness and thinking. But my best dances have been with partners who gently invite me to do something, and I respond, and counter with an invitation of my own, rather than him insisting on dictating what we do, he responds to my invitation, then issues a new invitation. It becomes a conversation, rather than a speech, with each partner listening and responding to the other. It opens the door to so much creativity.

A lot of men have discovered to their chagrin that I do not follow, and if a guy insists on leading, he'll find I can get pretty mule-y and uncooperative, and that I am anything but a dishrag dancer. Those dances usually end with me being as mad at him for being a pig, as he is with me for being a stubborn mule. But if an man asks me nicely, I can be one of the most responsive, tender partners he could ask for.

Renee

I know I may be skating on thin ice here but here goes anyway:

I do agree that it is a conversation (or can be with the right person), and that with the reality that each move is an invitation but nonethless the dance is very much about masculine and feminine roles, and awareness of the other person and how they are responding:

I have differing experiences of how can this be:
Ms S, a good friend of mine is a terrible tease ( she teaches and is used to leading) and will take over completley, given half a chance, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't; so it becomes a playful tug of war.

Ms M loves adornos, decorations, ganchos; so if the music is right and there's space I give her the space for her to add in her fancy footwork. As a leader I have to feel that this is happening since I cannot see her feet.

Ms A is one of my favourite dancers, because our dancing is so synergistic, that it feels like flying; we do respond to each other and it takes off. She inspires me and I inspire her. We do things that no-one has ever taught us they just happen

Ms C has the finest craftsmanship of any social dancer I know; she glides like a swan; knows how to hang an invitation until she's ready then springs like a cat.

That is for me the essence of tango; is finding out how the other person will respond., I hate the mechanicals who recognise the lead for an ocho and they're gone totally out of touch until the ocho is completed

 

[newbie]

...Ms S, a good friend of mine is a terrible tease ( she teaches and is used to leading) and will take over completley, given half a chance, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't; so it becomes a playful tug of war.

Ms M loves adornos, decorations, ganchos; so if the music is right and there's space I give her the space for her to add in her fancy footwork. As a leader I have to feel that this is happening since I cannot see her feet.

Ms A is one of my favourite dancers, because our dancing is so synergistic, that it feels like flying; we do respond to each other and it takes off. She inspires me and I inspire her. We do things that no-one has ever taught us they just happen

Ms C has the finest craftsmanship of any social dancer I know; she glides like a swan; knows how to hang an invitation until she's ready then springs like a cat...

You have nice partners indeed. I bet it's the reward for your own skills. Mine are somewhat different:

Miss N. always keeps her arms fully extended, forbidding any change of distance, making our tango (especially leans) look really weird and delaying her reaction time. When given the opportunity for adornments, she never does any.

Ms A.M is an advanced follower, more than 8 years of A.T and has attended tons of classes. Yet dancing with her is torture, as she likes the apilado way and I hate it. And boy, is she heavy! She does a lot of unexpected adornos, always putting me off balance as she's heavier than me. All the problems come from me of course, when given a strong partner (I mean A.T-skill plus physical strength) it looks great.

Miss T. is young, thin, tall, and has no balance. I must lead her with care as she overreacts in her following, and soon gets excited. When I'm in playful mood, our tango is frenzy (not the controlled frenzy you see in A.T videos) Sometimes she's stubborn, wants to lead her own stuff (typically a counter-barrida after my barrida) and insists trying to do it even if I clearly disagree, and we struggle and I win (Hey, who is the leader?). More than once, we fell on the dance floor.

Miss M. is sort of the neutral type, and will gladly "just follow". She's patient with my mistakes and very careful with my male ego when she's suggesting a correction. But she' always pushing forward, not having understood yet that in many A.T elements she should be on her axis; this makes any giro very difficult, and enrosques almost impossible.

 

[bordertangoman]

Miss N. always keeps her arms fully extended, forbidding any change of distance, making our tango (especially leans) look really weird and delaying her reaction time. When given the opportunity for adornments, she never does any.

Ms A.M is an advanced follower, more than 8 years of A.T and has attended tons of classes. Yet dancing with her is torture, as she likes the apilado way and I hate it. And boy, is she heavy! She does a lot of unexpected adornos, always putting me off balance as she's heavier than me. All the problems come from me of course, when given a strong partner (I mean A.T-skill plus physical strength) it looks great.

Miss T. is young, thin, tall, and has no balance. I must lead her with care as she overreacts in her following, and soon gets excited. When I'm in playful mood, our tango is frenzy (not the controlled frenzy you see in A.T videos) Sometimes she's stubborn, wants to lead her own stuff (typically a counter-barrida after my barrida) and insists trying to do it even if I clearly disagree, and we struggle and I win (Hey, who is the leader?). More than once, we fell on the dance floor.

Miss M. is sort of the neutral type, and will gladly "just follow". She's patient with my mistakes and very careful with my male ego when she's suggesting a correction. But she' always pushing forward, not having understood yet that in many A.T elements she should be on her axis; this makes any giro very difficult, and enrosques almost impossible.

This gives me the vision of how Dr Seuss would draw a tango salon! especially Mis T and Miss A. M. Could you rewrite your post in rhyme?

 

[newbie]

...Could you rewrite your post in rhyme?

Ms A.M, have to confess,
as a follow is quite advanced,
on many floors she has danced
and attended tons of classes.

Yet dancing with her for me is torture,
as she dances nothing but apilado way
and this style I hate, to her dismay
our tango alas has no future..

And boy, is she heavy!
Her surprise moves put me off balance
Too much adornment, in one single dance
Does not suit the feeble me


Miss T. is young, and tall, and thin
She dances with a playful mind
Jumps, runs, like a wild hind,
But her balance is not akin

And submissive she's surely not
We struggle, kick and fight a lot
When I push shes pushes more
And soon we fall on the wooden floor

 

[bordertangoman]

WONDERFUL!!

 

[madmaximus]

THAT is funny newbie!!!

Well done!



madmaximus

 

[genEus]

Just to chime in... I have about 6 AT lessons under my belt. I feel totally awkward and off-balance but I already know a lot of things and can attempt to combine things I know into a simple tango.

Now, on topic, I tried to dance with this girl who, ever since starting to dance a couple of months ago, has danced with a really good leader, who's been teaching her a lot of things. It was a total disaster on one hand, but an encouragement on another. I was happy that she wasn't just repeating the motions that were taught to us in the class, but actually followed my lead. Also, whenever I would try to do a moulinette (sp?) we would screw it up, and I kept wondering why. She just said that she's following what I led. So, an instructor saw this and said that I was walking in one direction but my chest was signaling something different, and she - being the sensitive follower that she is - simply followed my lead.

It was very helpful to realize my mistakes. If she had been simply doing the movements that we were taught, I would've never known that it wasn't actually me leading, and I would never learn.

my 2c.