Benefits of flirting

[Bailango]

If flirting does not entail real or playacted sexual undertones, then how can it be distinguished from simply being nice? Can one "flirt" with one's mother, for example? And if not, why do the nice things I say to my mother not count as flirting, while the same nice things said to a colleague do count?

It's fine to reject one notion, but you need to offer a useful definition in its place.

Because as someone put it above, it is a spectrum. It is not binary. Why is spectrum not a useful construct? I think by demanding a useful definition you are asking for clear demarcation lines. A spectrum doesn’t provide clear delineation. Isn’t that the same thing that leads Facebook to ban pictures of breastfeeding or of a parent posting pictures of bathing their child. Or as I think one Supreme Court judge said about the difficulty of defining porn by “I know it when I see it”.

You could have a world view that every interaction between people with the gender they find attractive has sexual undertones. Which is same as saying there can never be a true friendship between a man and a woman, where neither desires the other. I

You are entitled to whichever approach you prefer. You can’t project it on the rest.

 

[fiesta0618]

Because as someone put it above, it is a spectrum. It is not binary. Why is spectrum not a useful construct? I think by demanding a useful definition you are asking for clear demarcation lines. A spectrum doesn’t provide clear delineation.

I am not asking for clear demarcation lines. I agree with the fact that it is a spectrum. What I am asking for is clear definition of the extremes. If you don't know what the extremes are, then saying "it's a spectrum" is useless. Spectrum between what and what else?

My proposal is that it is a spectrum of sexual/romantic interest. One one extreme, you have no interest, even by implication, which is clearly "being nice but not flirting". On the other, you have real interest, not just implied, which is clearly "flirting". In the middle is a spectrum of implied, but deniable, where labels get squishy. What is your proposed alternative?

You could have a world view that every interaction between people with the gender they find attractive has sexual undertones. Which is same as saying there can never be a true friendship between a man and a woman, where neither desires the other.

You are entitled to whichever approach you prefer. You can’t project it on the rest

I've never stated that this is my worldview. Which is unsurprising, because it stands starkly at odds with what I think and believe. Who is projecting, here?

 

[IndyLady]

As hard as it is to define, there needs to be some clarity on what constitutes flirting or not flirting, not just an "it's a spectrum, however you want to define it" since flirting is not appropriate in many contexts. I'm thinking particularly of workplaces - this is what lands people with harassment charges, when one person thinks their comment was harmless but the recipient does not see it that way and is uncomfortable. In fact we have entire hour-plus trainings on that at my company that we have to do annually.

I'm very confused, and frankly disagree (and am incredulous that I'm even having to do this) by this assertion that "flirting" somehow encompasses conversations that have zero romantic undertones.

 

[David_In_CA]

To me, the word "flirting" has playful connotations, and does not have to have any intent behind it, which separates it from "coming on to" someone.

It does have to have some romantic or sexual overtones, but those can (as IndyLady said) be playacting, and it can be between people who know that nothing will ever happen between them, just as a form of social play.

ETA: Although, of course, choose your audiences carefully.

 

[Brummbaer]

What I am asking for is clear definition of the extremes. If you don't know what the extremes are, then saying "it's a spectrum" is useless. Spectrum between what and what else?

I gave some extremes! cat-calling->flirting->compliment. The demarcation line depends on the context and your home culture. As another comparison acceptable words in British English, or even more extreme, Australian English, are not acceptable in US English, and vice-versa.

I'm very confused, and frankly disagree (and am incredulous that I'm even having to do this) by this assertion that "flirting" somehow encompasses conversations that have zero romantic undertones.

You could also 'flirt with an idea', as in play around with the thought of doing something, probably not in earnest. So you could flirt with the idea of putting your mother into a care home.


Piripos, so roundly condemned and pounced on in other threads by, I believe, US English speakers, might be translated as 'flirting' or 'compliments' in specific deployments, contexts, and cultures; harassment in others. And yet there are pages and pages of them on the web. They're somewhere in that spectrum around 'flirting'.

I guess the demarcation line is what courts/employment tribunals get called on to decide by considering the context. It's just better not to have some court considering that.

 

[IndyLady]

You could also 'flirt with an idea', as in play around with the thought of doing something, probably not in earnest. So you could flirt with the idea of putting your mother into a care home.

I guess this needed an explicit disclaimer upfront, but I thought it was obvious that this discussion concerns flirting between two people, not flirting with an idea. You are correct about the existence of that second usage, and I use the term in that context as well. But that's not what we are talking about here.

Piripos, so roundly condemned and pounced on in other threads by, I believe, US English speakers, might be translated as 'flirting' or 'compliments' in specific deployments, contexts, and cultures; harassment in others. And yet there are pages and pages of them on the web. They're somewhere in that spectrum around 'flirting'.

I will be transparent, I don't visit or read the Argentine Tango forum where I assume those threads are taking place. But if you want to provide a brief summary and argue the point about whether or not it constitutes "flirting", I guess that would be topical here.

I guess the demarcation line is what courts/employment tribunals get called on to decide by considering the context. It's just better not to have some court considering that.

I think we can figure some of that out without having to involve the legal system.

 

[Brummbaer]

But if you want to provide a brief summary and argue the point about whether or not it constitutes "flirting", I guess that would be topical here.

I'd rather not summarise for fear of offending someone's cultural perspective. I gave a link in post #12 of this thread, but it's here. And I emphasize posts around there and links to an earlier thread many, many pages in.

All I'll say further on the subject is to repeat that one translation might be flirting. How you interpret that depends on the cultures to which you're accustomed and whether you're sympathetic.

I thought it was obvious that this discussion concerns flirting between two people, not flirting with an idea.

Yes, I understand the concept well enough. It's well-used in films, plays, the 'rom-com', even Shakespeare. The point is that the derivative hints at toying around insincerely.

I think we can figure some of that out without having to involve the legal system.

I refer you back to my example of 'boss' complimenting|flirting with employee of same/opposite gender where there might be a sexual interest. The 'compliment' might be construed as harassment to indulge in something further to promote their career. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe HR can resolve it. Maybe some allegation comes back years later to bite.

 

[DanceMentor]

Some people learn how to flirt through dancing. Some people never developed this skill very well, and dancing helped them to feel more comfortable expressing themselves, perhaps they even felt sexy and made others feel sexy. Some people do seek a result, eventually with someone. Just because they flirt with someone does not mean they are seeking a sexual relationship with that person! And obviously, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to flirt, and this is something that is governed by laws and societal norms. Historically, dancing has often challenged those norms. Heck, making frequent eye contact would be considered flirting in many situations. And perish the thought of moving your hips seductively while making eye contact!

 

[j_alexandra]

This is quite the sales pitch.... ChatGPT?

I'm with you.

 

[DanceMentor]

Respectfully, no. I repeat, that is just basic human decency. By that definition 90% of my in-person interactions with other people, male and female, qualify as "flirting". Flirting implies some sort of romantic intentions, whether serious or just playing. And pretty much everyone in this thread has agreed with that point.


This is quite the sales pitch.... ChatGPT?

I created a separate thread about using chatGPT to post messages.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Female at social dance says to male dance partner:

You’re doing a great job leading
I like your shirt
This is the most fun I’ve had all night
You have a wonderful sense of humor

NOT ONE OF THOSE STATEMENTS IS FLIRTING.

However, they can be turned into flirting with suggestive edits like these:

You’re doing a great job leading…you can lead me anywhere you want
I like your shirt…I bet it would look good on me, too
This is the most fun I’ve had all night…well, that is, so far
You have a wonderful sense of humor…I’d like to learn more about your other senses

Do y’all really not understand the difference? Pleasantries, courtesy, kindness - NOT THE SAME AS FLIRTING!

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Female at social dance says to male dance partner:

Disregard the gender qualifiers

 

[DanceMentor]

Female at social dance says to male dance partner:

You’re doing a great job leading
I like your shirt
This is the most fun I’ve had all night
You have a wonderful sense of humor

NOT ONE OF THOSE STATEMENTS IS FLIRTING.

However, they can be turned into flirting with suggestive edits like these:

You’re doing a great job leading…you can lead me anywhere you want
I like your shirt…I bet it would look good on me, too
This is the most fun I’ve had all night…well, that is, so far
You have a wonderful sense of humor…I’d like to learn more about your other senses

Do y’all really not understand the difference? Pleasantries, courtesy, kindness - NOT THE SAME AS FLIRTING!

I think there's a range here where it's not easy to define. Different tones of voice could change everything too.

Flirting can be as simple as just letting someone know you like them. You are letting them know that you are open to deepening the friendship.

When it comes to dancing, I can be really helpful if there is a connection between partners. And flirting can be a way of letting someone know that you enjoy dancing with him and you like their personality.

Sometimes people are going to test the boundaries to the extent that what they do or say is inappropriate. What they do or say might make another person feel uncomfortable. That can start to get into the area of harassment.

But I will hold to the idea that there is plenty of flirting that can go on that is not harassment. People's boundaries are going to be different too. And dancing can help people understand that better.

 

[Brummbaer]

Do y’all really not understand the difference? Pleasantries, courtesy, kindness - NOT THE SAME AS FLIRTING!

I'll go with those as not flirting, but the question was about the benefits of flirting, the opposite of those good examples (without the edits) and running into your 2nd set (I actually spotted one similar to that about the shirt in a list of piripos, but it was gender switched, so probably not acceptable to some)

The problem is that the general attitude seems to be flirting is fine, even beneficial [to me?] when I do it, or say that it's ok, but not when others do it, or do it in a way I don't like.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

I'll go with those as not flirting, but the question was about the benefits of flirting

Ah. Right. Then my answer is an emphatic no, flirting does not provide any benefits whatsoever to my dancing. In fact, it can cause all sorts of problems. I say that from the standpoint of a married woman in my 50s who dances almost exclusively pro/am ballroom styles.

If I flirt with someone, it’s inappropriate because I’m married. If someone flirts with me, ditto. If someone flirts with me because they don’t know I’m married (I don’t wear my rings very often), it’s uncomfortable and awkward while I set them straight. If a teacher were ever to flirt with me, it would damage any trust I had built up, and make future lessons (if any) uncomfortable and awkward. If I were ever to flirt with a teacher - well, see, I can’t even finish that sentence, because I simply would NOT flirt with a teacher. I’m paying them to teach me a skill, and they don’t deserve to be treated as if I’m paying for some other “service.” It’s not nice and it’s not fair. It’s demeaning to them and cheapens me.

I’m not a prude. I used to looooove flirting and was extremely good at it. But I’ve learned from a lifetime of exhausting and painful and tedious experience that most men cannot tell the difference - or deliberately ignore the difference - between friendly courtesy and “come hither” comments. Even the GOOD men, the well-intentioned “woke” dudes who genuinely believe they’re not male chauvinists, fall prey to that misunderstanding.

Shifting gears: let’s say I’m now in my 20s and unmarried - then flirting is fun, way too easy, and if I’m at a social dance to find a date or a hookup or a spouse, then flirting will certainly benefit THAT goal. But if I’m at a social dance or a lesson to learn how to dance, then flirting is distracting at best, and can all too easily slide down the slope from distracting to uncomfortable, awkward, creepy, harassing, alarming, threatening, and dangerous.