Block, Cross & the Hesitation Therein...

[Dave Bailey]

I am sure the instructor knows AT, and is just going by what the suggested approach of teaching beginners: steps first, technique later.

One problem with that approach is that "later" usually turns into "never".

In addition, learning technique later is usually harder than learning it earlier, as you have to unlearn stuff. Better to learn it right first time. And much better to learn how to lead one step well, than to learn how to walk through a pattern of steps together.

If technique and all sorts of advanced stuff is taught to someone dancing socially, it's safe to assume that the student will get frightened because the concepts are "so advanced."

Depends how it's done - yes, steps are flashy marketing gizmos, but in the long term, if you produce good dancers, that in itself will recommend you to other good dancers. Product quality, eventually, will win out.

 

[tangobro]

I think there is a simpler way to approach the cross:

imagine you are pushed off balance as you are walking. You will instinctively put a foot out to catch your weight. Try it and see.

As the woman is walking backwards you are leading her so her weight or centre of axis moves to her right. If she feels this lead then she moves to where you are taking her centre.

This principle works for the cross wherever it starts but the woman must be midstep or double weighted at the starting point ( except where in a back cross the backstep starts but her weight never arrives on the free leg)

I learned to lead the cross by 1st being led to the cross by my teacher in the way described by BTM. After feeling the lead I was then taught the mechanics of how to accomplish the lead. I was taught that the movements of the legs in tango are primarily a consequence of what happens in the upper body. In other words, technique produces the step.

 

[Ampster]

I am indeed a ballroom dancer, trying to make up for a late start by learning as much as possible about everything :razz:

Br0nze: Something that may help you understand the diffences between br tango and AT---> Click here

 

[Ampster]

<snippet> Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

... if the arms are useless and one is in "practice hold" as opposed to the Argentine embrace the Tango is so well known for (and for that matter, how does one lead in the hold as is, and is it different from Ballroom Leading)?
...

I am indeed a ballroom dancer, trying to make up for a late start by learning as much as possible about everything :razz:

We didn't quite get *that* far, we were only shown the "Basic" and "Cross" and left to try them.

In terms of explaining where the lead comes from, etc etc, the instructor did explain briefly where it comes from (torso)

In answer to both of these (snippets) from you, the answer to leading without the arms IS the ridiculously tilted hold, you mentioned. Because, the lead comes from the center, the area more or less above your solr plexeus. NOT necessarily the torso as your teacher states. My thoughts About tango posture

If you lead with your center (Chest), you transmit leading signals to your partner, chest-to-chest.

The arms, are there to embrace each other

And again, the differences between br and AT---> Click here

 

[hbboogie1]

In answer to both of these (snippets) from you, the answer to leading without the arms IS the ridiculously tilted hold, you mentioned. Because, the lead comes from the center, the area more or less above your solr plexeus. NOT necessarily the torso as your teacher states. My thoughts About tango posture

If you lead with your center (Chest), you transmit leading signals to your partner, chest-to-chest.

The arms, are there to embrace each other

And again, the differences between br and AT---> Click here

Bronze,
I feel you are getting so much information your head must be ready to explode.
I’d like to address the use of the arms and hands. First of all if you look at all the little pictures of the people giving you advice you’ll notice they are all using their arms and hands to embrace their partners. Forget about the one hand lead or the no hand lead unless you want to practice leading with your chest at a practica. Do not attempt this at the milonga.

The embrace establishes a frame be it close or open just like ballroom. The hands are used to guide the woman especially in open embrace. The arm shouldn’t pump up and down it should remain steady giving your partner a sense of security and helping keep her in balance and on her axis.
Your right hand is cupped with fingers together so when you guide her there can be only three pressure points. Your palm to move her outward, your four fingers together to move her inward or your hand flat on her back in order to move her in a straight forward step.

Remember to lead with your chest not with your hands however your hands and arms move with your chest just like in ballroom. It’s like the beachball practice hold everything in the upper body moves together.

I hope this will benefit you and if you don’t fully understand what I’m trying to convey ask your instructor.

Good luck and stick with it

 

[Zoopsia59]

Bronze,
I feel you are getting so much information your head must be ready to explode.

MY head is ready to explode and I already know how to both lead and follow the cross and have taught it!

Bronze, don't make yourself nuts. Take a few more lessons with this instructor and see where they go with things.

Some instructors start off with a basic pattern that leads to the cross simply so people can feel they are getting somewhere and have something to build on. Its easy to spend the entire first hour standing still or only walking a little because dealing with all the technique up front takes time. A lot of students feel gyped when that's all they do for the first lesson or even the first few lessons. This is especially true of a clientele that is taking or has taken other partner dance forms, and teachers who get those students know that's how they're going to feel. Nobody spends the first fox trot or swing lesson talking (about concepts) more than moving.

If after a few lessons, it seems you are ONLY getting patterns and no instruction on the fundamentals that make EACH ELEMENT of the pattern work, then look elsewhere for instruction.

But there are teachers who don't get bogged down in that in the first lesson or two, because people want to dance and move! They come to dance classes to have fun and explore a hobby... they don't know yet that its a way of life (for some of us, an addiction!), and sometimes its better that they don't realize that too soon!

I know a teacher who starts off in lesson 1 with basic milonga. Step on every main beat, change feet with every step, keep moving! He gives a simple basic 6 count pattern and maybe several simple variations of it depending on how things are going. At the end of lesson 1, folks think they learned something and they got to move around a lot. They're tired and they feel good. They won't remember all of it, but they'll come back because they had a good time and want to go further. They may even joke about the "cartoon character" music (never thought of milonga that way til a student said it.. now I always think.. yep... it does have that quality a little bit!)

They don't leave thinking... "Oh my God this is going to take FOREVER!" which may be just about the worst thing for a student to feel after their first lesson.

He tells them that there are 3 basic AT dance forms (milonga, tango and vals) and that today we are playing with milonga and we'll get to the others in succesive lessons. He sneaks in fundamental concepts about floorcraft and line of dance. He sneaks in rotating the shoulders to walk outside of the follower and how to stay connected. He talks about posture, holds, forward pressure, staying in front of the leader (for followers) moving directly into the follower with clear intention instead of worrying about stepping on her (for leaders) and the method of reaching (stepping, walking, whatever) for both leaders going forward (chest leads, not feet!) and followers going backwards (no falling back... stay forward!) He gets people listening to and dancing to the music rather than thinking about some intricate pattern using "tango'ish" movements that aren't intuitive or easy for non-dancers (and that typically are hard for beginners to fit into the music)

Yep... all in lesson one while actually doing lots of really energetic dancing. And it works. All those principles get reinforced in every lesson AND people get to actually dance around the room. Its LIVELY. People don't even realize that the pattern was pretty simple cause they felt like they were DANCING.

He delves into tango rhythm and putting in the cross and some of that other stuff a few lessons down the road, still hammering the fundamentals from lesson one into everyone's head. And he doesn't expect people to get the cross in only a lesson or two, but since its such a common piece of the tango vocabulary, it gets worked on even when the lesson is about something else. He introduces it fairly early (maybe at the end of one of the first lessons as a preview of coming attractions) because it feels "tangoy" to people. The things that make it complicated or difficult are dealt with in stages as people progress rather than as a "move that we learn this week".

My point is... don't make yourself nuts. This really is a way of life. A huge time commitment is nessesary to become profficient at tango. Look for an instructor who tells you the HOW and WHY behind the elements of the patterns they give, but also figure they might not want to scare people off with too much of that in the first couple of lessons. If you haven't gotten any of that kind of thing by lesson 3 or 4, I'd say you're not going to get it and its time to find someone else.

 

[Br0nze]

Bronze,
I feel you are getting so much information your head must be ready to explode.
I’d like to address the use of the arms and hands. First of all if you look at all the little pictures of the people giving you advice you’ll notice they are all using their arms and hands to embrace their partners. Forget about the one hand lead or the no hand lead unless you want to practice leading with your chest at a practica. Do not attempt this at the milonga.

The embrace establishes a frame be it close or open just like ballroom. The hands are used to guide the woman especially in open embrace. The arm shouldn’t pump up and down it should remain steady giving your partner a sense of security and helping keep her in balance and on her axis.
Your right hand is cupped with fingers together so when you guide her there can be only three pressure points. Your palm to move her outward, your four fingers together to move her inward or your hand flat on her back in order to move her in a straight forward step.

Remember to lead with your chest not with your hands however your hands and arms move with your chest just like in ballroom. It’s like the beachball practice hold everything in the upper body moves together.

I hope this will benefit you and if you don’t fully understand what I’m trying to convey ask your instructor.

Good luck and stick with it

Haha, not just yet, but getting there.

All of this info is slowly seeping in, and will eventually accumulate. I just need to keep finding time to sit down, thoroughly (re)read it and let it sink in. It's not so much the amount of info as much as the "sinking in/application" time. I find that a day or two after I read/am introduced to something/shown, etc, I begin to grasp it more and more. So I'm just taking it a page at a time, little by little.

And I'm not planning to give up or drive myself nuts anytime soon. I've only got the rest of my life to figure this stuff out, right?

 

[Heather2007]

Bronze, don't make yourself nuts.

Exactly! Especially when he is so new to it all. Soooooo many beginners have kittens over something which frankly takes years to even get to that "not bad" stage let alone mastering it, and so lose the two most vital things in the dance (during the process): Patience and Joy.

(Bronze: Think AA. One step at a time. You really shouldn't be thinking about blocks and crosses etc. at this infant stage).

 

[bastet]

Exactly! Especially when he is so new to it all. Soooooo many beginners have kittens over something which frankly takes years to even get to that "not bad" stage let alone mastering it, and so lose the two most vital things in the dance (during the process): Patience and Joy.

(Bronze: Think AA. One step at a time. You really shouldn't be thinking about blocks and crosses etc. at this infant stage).

I agree with Heather and Zoopsia. Blocking and crossing is not really important at this point. Don't get weighed down by this.

It's entirely possible to learn quite a bit of what you need for more complicated movement by learning the simpler ones first. All the basic components are encompassed there and will make the more complicated ones easier to deal with later.

Wallking (lots and lots of it), leading clear weight changes, rock steps and very simple turns and trying to tear these apart and put them back together in a many ways as you can think of will pay off big-time later.

I also agree with Zoopsia that although a teacher may give you a "sample" pattern, if they don't start covering the technique behind it fairly soon after, they probably won't.

 

[opendoor]

sure !

.. think there is a simpler way to approach the cross...

Of course, my (over)analysis ..

.. consists of 2-3 isolated moves ..

.. was not meant didactically.

But, it may be helpful, if you try the classical cross in the mirrored version: walking outside on the right side of the follower, then shifting her into the cross from left to right (men´s view).

As interesting: forced crosses f.i http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FkSaaEPRng