Block, Cross & the Hesitation Therein...

[Br0nze]

I'm glad you came here, Br0nze. Keep the questions coming!

I just want to stress that the best Argentine instruction you can get is very simple and very clear. As a beginner in a beginning class, you should be working on walking, your balance/core/center, and feeling your partner's balance/core/center. Interpretation of the music comes later. Finding your partner's foot on the floor comes later on when you have discovered your walk, your center, and can feel your partner's.

Do you dance ballroom? I ask because your username. It is unfortunate, but quite common for ballroom studios to pick up Argentine as a novelty flavor of the month, and teach it after watching some DVDs. Dance Vision, or DVIDA, is one of the more common methods. We learned DVIDA so that we could cure the students who came to us as refugees from that system. Toward the end of the bronze DVIDA syllabus, there is a combination that goes something like this:

The man walks and leads the lady to cross.
She steps forward to the man's right and walks around him
He makes circles with his free foot as she walks
He stops her foot with the foot he was making circles with
She steps over his foot (to his right side)
The lady may hook here, or may not
She swivels twice, or four times
He walks her forward, side, close.

If that combination is what you were shown on a first lesson, I urge you to study tango somewhere else. Not only is that shamefully advanced for a first lesson, but it is being presented as a pattern, without any of the necessary elements of how to lead or follow it.

I am indeed a ballroom dancer, trying to make up for a late start by learning as much as possible about everything :razz:

We didn't quite get *that* far, we were only shown the "Basic" and "Cross" and left to try them.

In terms of explaining where the lead comes from, etc etc, the instructor did explain briefly where it comes from (torso) and "how," but again, nothing as technical or in-depth so that I can understand it (not that it was too simplistic of an explanation, but it wasn't detailed enough either).

I am not sure if it's a flavor of the month, but the studio is indeed more of a Ballroom Studio than a genuine AT Studio. With that said, however, I do not question the instructor's knowledge, and have respect, just as I would any dancer who has been dancing and learning (and teaching, for that matter) for much longer than I. I am sure the instructor knows AT, and is just going by what the suggested approach of teaching beginners: steps first, technique later. If technique and all sorts of advanced stuff is taught to someone dancing socially, it's safe to assume that the student will get frightened because the concepts are "so advanced."

 

[Mladenac]

i know people that are dancing tango several years, but when i watch them i got a smile.
They don't have posture, proper walking technique, they are dancing figures not tango.

Doing yoga without proper breathing is not yoga, it's exercise.
Dancing tango without connection is not tango, it's exercise.

connection is made with lead and follow.

I enjoy more with simple step and with connection then with super steps but without connection.

if you had proper basic training you would not have asked these questions.

 

[Mladenac]

i know people that are dancing tango several years, but when i watch them i got a smile.
They don't have posture, proper walking technique, they are dancing figures not tango.

Doing yoga without proper breathing is not yoga, it's exercise.
Dancing tango without connection is not tango, it's exercise.

connection is made with lead and follow.

I enjoy more with simple step and with connection then with super steps but without connection.

if you had been taught basics training you would not have asked these questions.

 

[tangobro]

If leading someone who was taught that the cross is automatic (like a lot of Argentines are), then the leader needs to do something if he doesn't want the follower to cross.

Leaders need to be able to deal with followers of both philosophies (cross is lead, and cross is automatic).

I have a question about the parenthetic statement "...someone who was taught that the cross is automatic (like a lot of Argentines are)"

We have an Argentine community here in in NYC, many of them dance tango, some of them teach tango. We also get Argentine visitors who dance tango while in New York. I've only danced with about 15-20 Argentine women but NONE did an automatic cross. Several have told me a similar story - they learned to dance tango from their father or uncles when they were young. The men moved/guided them to each step, and they expect that of their dance partner now. They say something like - si el hombre no me marca , no me muevo. If the man does not lead me I don't move by myself. Where did you meet these Argentines who were taught the cross is automatic, here in the US or in Argentina? Were they men or women?

It's difficult to determine how things were taught in the past. Written records rarely address lead / follow the way we address it currently. If anyone has any material from printed sources that, sorry, is in English, please share because this is of particular interest to me...

One of my teachers, Anton Gazenbeek, is also a a tango historian. He collects oral & filmed histories of tango in Argentina. He tells us the cross was pretty much invented & popularized by 1 couple. Robert Farris Thompson in "The Art History of Love" gives this account of the sobrepaso also known as la cruce- the cross on Page 246 :


"Two stories are told of the rise of the sobrepaso, one version stemming from Mingo Pugliese, the second from Eduardo Arquimbaud...modern tango begins with the sobrepaso.
According to Mingo Pugliese, the revolution started with Jose Orradre, El Vasquito de Villa Crespo (1902-1962). He danced in the 1930's with his wife, Olga. He was honored bailarin with the orchestras of Juan d'Arienzo and Osvaldo Pugliese.
In 1938-39 Orradre was practicing with a partner, a man named Recalde. As Orradre was bringing this man forward to start off the dance, Recalde reached the point where he had no room to advance. So instead he stepped back with a cross-step, left over right. A new possibility opened up. Orradre recognized it."

 

[Gssh]

suggested approach of teaching beginners: steps first, technique later. If technique and all sorts of advanced stuff is taught to someone dancing socially, it's safe to assume that the student will get frightened because the concepts are "so advanced."

In my experience the beginners who felt most at home on the social dancefloor were taught mainly technique and very little in the way of figures. My personal recommendation for beginners is that all that is needed to be ok at a milonga is knowing how to walk, shift weight and do rocksteps to get around corners and use up time when the flow of the dancefloor makes it neccessary. I beleive that combined with some awareness of the music this will make a beginning leader a reasonably pleasant experience.

Gssh

 

[dchester]

Where did you meet these Argentines who were taught the cross is automatic, here in the US or in Argentina? Were they men or women?

Mostly in the US. They were women. I've never asked any men about when they cross.

 

[bastet]

I have a question about the parenthetic statement "...someone who was taught that the cross is automatic (like a lot of Argentines are)"

- si el hombre no me marca , no me muevo. If the man does not lead me I don't move by myself.

that more or less jives with what I have been told by guys who did a lot of learning from older Argentine ladies. If they weren't being led, they didn't budge. And they made it pretty clear to me that it was quite difficult to move them if the lead wasn't clear.

I will say that my first Argentine teacher, who was an Argentine woman, did not answer or accept questions re lead or follow, and taught the crusada as a pattern. As I was used to learning lead and follow in my other dances because I got lucky with the coach I had who stressed lead and follow technique, I was pretty annoyed.

I was so lucky to have taken a chance on a beginner set with Fernanda and Guillermo and they teach lead and follow so i stuck with it after that and found a new teacher.

 

[Br0nze]

i know people that are dancing tango several years, but when i watch them i got a smile.
They don't have posture, proper walking technique, they are dancing figures not tango.

Doing yoga without proper breathing is not yoga, it's exercise.
Dancing tango without connection is not tango, it's exercise.

connection is made with lead and follow.

I enjoy more with simple step and with connection then with super steps but without connection.

if you had been taught basics training you would not have asked these questions.

I have to agree with you there on all counts, Mladenac. The only thing that is worth doing is something that is done correctly, otherwise it's just empty and meaningless.

I suppose had I been properly schooled in the basics, I would've been better off. But hey, better late than never.

 

[Br0nze]

In my experience the beginners who felt most at home on the social dancefloor were taught mainly technique and very little in the way of figures. My personal recommendation for beginners is that all that is needed to be ok at a milonga is knowing how to walk, shift weight and do rocksteps to get around corners and use up time when the flow of the dancefloor makes it neccessary. I beleive that combined with some awareness of the music this will make a beginning leader a reasonably pleasant experience.

Gssh

It's different strokes for different folks, truth be told. Some students can handle and are interested in technique and realize that technique is what makes the dance, not the steps; others care only for knowing the steps without any idea of how to lead them.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

It's different strokes for different folks, truth be told. Some students can handle and are interested in technique and realize that technique is what makes the dance, not the steps; others care only for knowing the steps without any idea of how to lead them.

Problems occur when the latter folks start showing up in milongas.
I wish something could be done about teachers catering mainly to that kind of students. Sigh.

 

[Br0nze]

Problems occur when the latter folks start showing up in milongas.
I wish something could be done about teachers catering mainly to that kind of students. Sigh.

Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating this type of teaching. I am against it, and when I teach, I try to incorporate and emphasize the idea (read: fact) that without sound technique nothing will work.

But like I said, different strokes for different folks. Some students respond to technique first, some are terrified of it. Others respond to steps first and technique later. I am a believer of the following: as long as technique is taught *eventually* and successfully, it's fine. But if an instructor is not emphasizing the importance of good technique dare I say non-stop, then yes, something is wrong.

 

[larrynla]

The best teachers - and in all other dance forms also - teach both figures and technique that underlies those figures.

Laer Carroll - ShapechangerTales.com

 

[Mladenac]

Tango is different from standard and latin, because of improvisation and musicality.
So because of that i would emphasize technique.

i agree with Gssh that said for going on milonga step forward, step aside, and rocking step is enough.

Tango is about subtlety of movements, not about figures.
It is very difficult to lead pattern dancers, and btw they are not aware of their body movements.

When I lead pattern dancers to feel weight changes and some other subtleties they are thrilled because they can feel dancing tango.

How can follower know when to cross while going aside you if it is learned as a pattern?

 

[opendoor]

cross = three in one

Hi BrOnze, welcome at the DF.!

In some way Me is right, in some way not.

..cross or not to cross is so simple when ..

Mostly, the cross is taught as a stepping sequence. And, if not, it is very difficult to dance it correctly, and that counts for experienced leaders, as well. Friends of mine that learned according to the TangoDiscovery didactics never danced the cross properly until their third year !

That lies in its complexity, because it consists of 2-3 isolated moves:

1) a track-shift to the left (men´s view)
2) a parada (you block the followers foot)
3) and a weight shift to unlock the follower´s foot again.

And, everyone who denies the difficulty should try it the other way round (mirrored).

If you lead it not as part of a fixed pattern you are as free to shape it as you want to. I (f.i.) mostly stress the aspect of the parada, that means I pause (according to the music). But you may as well walk right through the cross without any pause.

 

[bordertangoman]

Hi BrOnze, welcome at the DF.!

In some way Me is right, in some way not.

Mostly, the cross is taught as a stepping sequence. And, if not, it is very difficult to dance it correctly, and that counts for experienced leaders as for followers. Friends of mine that learned according to the TangoDiscovery didactics never danced the cross properly until their third year !

That lies in its complexity, because it consists of 2-3 isolated moves:

1) a track-shift to the left (men´s view)
2) a parada (you block the followers foot)
3) and a weight shift to unlock the follower´s foot again.

And, everyone who denies the difficulty should try it the other way round (mirrored).

If you lead it not as part of a fixed pattern you are as free to shape it as you want to. I (f.i.) mostly stress the aspect of the parada, that means I pause (according to the music). But you may as well walk right through the cross without any pause.

I think there is a simpler way to approach the cross:

imagine you are pushed off balance as you are walking. You will instinctively put a foot out to catch your weight. Try it and see.

As the woman is walking backwards you are leading her so her weight or centre of axis moves to her right. If she feels this lead then she moves to where you are taking her centre.

This principle works for the cross wherever it starts but the woman must be midstep or double weighted at the starting point ( except where in a back cross the backstep starts but her weight never arrives on the free leg)