Both feet on the floor

[UKDancer]

Just so I know what people are talking about, what's a "traditional" walk?

Anyone having a go at that is stepping on dangerous ground, here.

I'd say that some of its characteristics are that the stepping action is commenced by a movement of the torso, over the standing leg, the knee of which has been flexed to release the flat foot from the floor, leaving just the ball of foot in light contact. Torso movement precedes the movement of the leg, because the leader needs to know/feel that the follower has commenced her movement, creating a space into which to step. At about the point of imbalance (for me, just before, not after it has been reached), the foot is picked up, slightly, and without the 'swing' action used in so many other dances, the foot is placed forward*, toe or heel first (depending on the chosen style), followed by immediate and full transfer of weight to a flat foot, Following weight transfer, the trailing (now free) leg is relaxed, and largely under the influence of gravity, it comes under its own hip, bringing the whole body into momentary alignment and balance, before the process starts again with the other leg.

*The torso continues to move forward too, with the aim of keeping the moving foot 'under' the body as far as possible. Early in this movement, the point of balance is passed, and the tendency of the body to fall, under gravity, is balanced by pushing (largely upwards) from the standing foot, so as not to fall, allowing the placement of the forward foot, it having skimmed the floor.

 

[bordertangoman]

That's not a traditional walk. At all. It may work, but there is no pushing off the standing leg, no toe trailing in contact with the floor. And I would argue such advice is terrible for a beginner. Pushing off the standing leg and pointing the toe create dissonance, particularly in close embrace. I guarantee you, the follower will feel it even if it works fine for you. I consider pointing the toe purely a feature of showmanship. And I'm hardly a die-hard traditionalist.

.

Yes but I am and I disagree with everything in that paragraph;

pointing the toe is for elegance, but its a pretty fundalmental part of keeping the foot close to the floor when its moving.
And its what I would advocate for beginners so they get correct technique and move with intention. I see lots of tango dancers who have little variation in their step size becuase they have poor teaching - both leaders and followers.
No it doesnt create dissonance, why would it?

here is Aljandro hermida using it- albeit sparingly

i suggest watching with sound off first, then again with sound.

[yt]zDpjPH5cy9M&[/yt]

 

[tangotime]

from a leaders point of view. I take a step forward, but leave my rear foot on the ground behind me, all my weight is on the front of my front foot.

There is a moment, when the weight is divided between the feet..the body "speed " may vary, depending upon the following action, and may affect foot placement .

 

[opendoor]

Shrek I´m not a native speaker, so I might have misunderstood you. But what you wrote seems to be pretty wrong and is neither used in advanced traditional nor modern tango.

Try it this way:

-keep your weight as long! as possible on the rear foot,

-the front foot is kind of simulating the touch down coming (this is called projecting),

-hip bends slightly backwards, back thigh muscles are maximally tensed now,

-your hip angle provides the follower the information for the step length,

-front leg straightens and reaches out,

-front foot hits the ground in the very last moment
(heal or ball depends on your personal style),

-rear leg is straightend, toes cling into the ground,

-rear toes roll of.


Please do not learn the way shown in the tango&chaos vid:
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/9twist.htm
Ask your teacher instead if he is familiar with the concept of projecting, if not change it.

 

[bordertangoman]

Shrek I´m not a native speaker, so I might have misunderstood you. But what you wrote seems to be pretty wrong and is neither used in advanced traditional nor modern tango.

Try it this way:

-keep your weight as long! as possible on the rear foot,

-the front foot is kind of simulating the touch down coming (this is called projecting),

-hip bends slightly backwards, back thigh muscles are maximally tensed now,

-your hip angle provides the follower the information for the step length,

-front leg straightens and reaches out,

-front foot hits the ground in the very last moment
(heal or ball depends on your personal style),

-rear leg is straightend, toes cling into the ground,

-rear toes roll of.

ROTFLOL!!!

you cannot be serious!

and exactly when does he move forward?

 

[sixela]

No, the leader doesn't have to do it [collect]... but it helps. It really does.

Yes it does. You wouldn't believe the number of leaders who, when they leave the trailing foot, will then move it to the end position without collecting it, and will then also, during the step, move their COG without collecting through the axis. And that's BAD, as in "oh my God!" BAD.

What you do with the trailing foot is an element of style. If your weight isn't on it but on an axis over your other foot, then you pretty much do what you want with it, including tapping, doing a lapiz or enrosque, kicking a post that's in the way on the dance floor, or (this one to be used with parsimony) kicking a leader who can't shut up on the dance floor and is causing a traffic jam because he isn't paying attention.

And yes, that includes the freedom to leave it where it was for as long as possible if you so wish.

*Insisting* that it be left there and that it changes the walk is a recipe for a whole host of errors to appear.

The only error I've seen it help to prevent is stepping *beyond* where the follower is instead of moving with her, throwing her (and you) off-axis, but it's a bad crutch. Applying the brakes (i.e. consiously collecting over the axis instead of whooshing past it en route to stepping somewhere) is a much better way of handling that, in my opinion.

And if you learn to collect, you'll also tend to be more musical, as you'll be much more aware of the weak beat of the music and what "happens" there, and the myriad of possibilities other than the one you had in mind when both partners are collected.

Once you've mastered that principle you can start to play around in the sandbox. But trying to do what I consider adornos before having mastered the principle of the sequence of things that happen during any step? Ouch!

 

[dchester]

Anyone having a go at that is stepping on dangerous ground, here.

I'd say that some of its characteristics are that the stepping action is commenced by a movement of the torso, over the standing leg, the knee of which has been flexed to release the flat foot from the floor, leaving just the ball of foot in light contact. Torso movement precedes the movement of the leg, because the leader needs to know/feel that the follower has commenced her movement, creating a space into which to step. At about the point of imbalance (for me, just before, not after it has been reached), the foot is picked up, slightly, and without the 'swing' action used in so many other dances, the foot is placed forward*, toe or heel first (depending on the chosen style), followed by immediate and full transfer of weight to a flat foot, Following weight transfer, the trailing (now free) leg is relaxed, and largely under the influence of gravity, it comes under its own hip, bringing the whole body into momentary alignment and balance, before the process starts again with the other leg.

*The torso continues to move forward too, with the aim of keeping the moving foot 'under' the body as far as possible. Early in this movement, the point of balance is passed, and the tendency of the body to fall, under gravity, is balanced by pushing (largely upwards) from the standing foot, so as not to fall, allowing the placement of the forward foot, it having skimmed the floor.

OK, I think I'm following what you are saying, with the exception of not seeing what's significantly different from your description, and the details of what Shrek posted.

In detail the walk works something like this from a leaders point of view. I take a step forward, but leave my rear foot on the ground behind me, all my weight is on the front of my front foot. I give intention of my next move. The follower moves her foot in preparation of the next move. Only then do I move my rear foot and take my next step. Because of this we don't collect at the same time.

I apologize in advance if this comes across as being negative, but I'm really questioning my reading comprehension at the moment, as I keep thinking I don't know what people are actually trying to say.

 

[UKDancer]

OK, I think I'm following what you are saying, with the exception of not seeing what's significantly different from your description, and the details of what Shrek posted.

The difference is in the collection. In the 'traditional' walk, the feet are allowed to come together (or something very close) between steps (actually, immediately after weight transfer). In the alternative, the trailing foot is left behind, usually for as long as possible. The former works best with an almost totally relaxed free leg, whereas in the latter, the leg has to be almost held there, before being moved quite quickly through 'neutral' and on to a new forward position.

 

[dchester]

Shrek I´m not a native speaker, so I might have misunderstood you. But what you wrote seems to be pretty wrong and is neither used in advanced traditional nor modern tango.

We clearly got different things from the OP, as I didn't see anything significantly wrong with it.

Try it this way:

-keep your weight as long! as possible on the rear foot,

-the front foot is kind of simulating the touch down coming (this is called projecting),

-hip bends slightly backwards, back thigh muscles are maximally tensed now,

-your hip angle provides the follower the information for the step length,

-front leg straightens and reaches out,

-front foot hits the ground in the very last moment
(heal or ball depends on your personal style),

-rear leg is straightend, toes cling into the ground,

-rear toes roll of.

To some extent, I was following you until you got to the stuff about the hips, at which point you completely lost me. I actually was standing in front of my TV (which doubles as my computer monitor), looking at your steps while trying to do them, and I still didn't get it.

As I seem to be having problems understanding the "essence" of several posts in this thread, I'm wondering if I'm just "off" today (and I havn't even started drinking yet).

Maybe that's what I need.

 

[dchester]

The difference is in the collection. In the 'traditional' walk, the feet are allowed to come together (or something very close) between steps (actually, immediately after weight transfer). In the alternative, the trailing foot is left behind, usually for as long as possible. The former works best with an almost totally relaxed free leg, whereas in the latter, the leg has to be almost held there, before being moved quite quickly through 'neutral' and on to a new forward position.

When walking, doesn't the collection always happen (unless he's walking bow legged or something)? Maybe it happens a bit later with one style vs another, but I think it still happens. It's not like one has to pause or anything to collect.

Part of why I'm unsure of what the real point people are trying to make, is because to me, it seems like people are mostly talking about very minor style differences, but trying to make it seem like there's some big difference. Now maybe there is a big difference and I'm simply not picking up on it.

To me, it just seems like when walking, after you change weight on to the front foot, then it mostly a style preference over:
1) The timing of when to move the free (or back) foot (delayed which then could cause some snap at the end as you catch up, vs starting sooner and keeping the movement more consistent),
2) Then how to move the free foot (dragging with the ball of foot, dragging with the toe, whether to lift the foot rather than drag).
3) And finally how to complete the landing of the free foot, to do the next weight change (toe first, heel first, lifting before landing, and how hard or soft to land).

When you drag the foot, there is a little weight on the "free" foot, thus it could be more stable (especially for someone who hasn't figured out what they need to do, or how to position themselves to stay stable). To be honest, I'd advise the OP to do some balance exercises, along with studying his (and his followers) foot positioning to see if things could be tweaked to make things more stable (so he can then walk with whatever style he chooses, as the music inspires him).

 

[shrek]

Just to say that I'm really enjoying reading everyone's posts on this.

@opendoor - I'm not sure if I completely follow either, but I think you're saying that you project your foot forward in front of your chest?

@UKDancer/Bordertangoman - Yes, that's what I was taught as an alternative to my normal walk. If taking a larger step then I can drag my rear foot with me until it is in the same position as is if I'd taken a smaller step. In my normal walk my partner and I collect at the same time. Whereas in the alternative we don't collect at the same time - I delay moving through the collection point.

@Subliminal - I'm not sure about whether I push off from my standing leg. I think to a degree I do, more so if taking a larger step, hardly at all if taking a small step. Not sure if this is right or not.

 

[opendoor]

@opendoor - I'm not sure if I completely follow either, but I think you're saying that you project your foot forward in front of your chest?

Exactly! Thats how it is done. Watch the walking in the first part of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpHouXWd_n8

..was following you until you got to the stuff about the hips, at which point you completely lost me..

But tell me how if not by projecting you will convey the information that the follower takes wide or small steps.

:cheers: by the way

..exactly when does he move forward?

Simply move forward? The point is breaking through barriers!

 

[sixela]

it seems like people are mostly talking about very minor style differences, but trying to make it seem like there's some big difference.

Bingo. Which is why i'm suspicious when someone claims it'll radically change your walk and make it "better". If it really changes your walk (rather than act as an element of style), then something is wrong...

 

[bordertangoman]

Exactly! Thats how it is done. Watch the walking in the first part of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpHouXWd_n8

Simply move forward? The point is breaking through barriers!

could you answer the question please?

I convey the intention of the size of the step by bending my knee. I dont do anything extra with my hips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ5ltZ0cJTA&feature=related

you can see what's going on here a lot better

 

[opendoor]

ooops, you actually are serious about it!

When you start projecting f.i. your right leg, you are kind of sinking (taiji talk) with your left one. And the more you sink the wider the follower will reach out her leg. And that is actually shown in the Costa vids, too. Cannot belief that we should have different views on this fact. Though you and I have never met, you can ask Captain J. and William N. that my stepping technique is the usual one.