Bronze and Silver Medals

[Cheery]

I just danced for the Bronze medal today, and this was my experience, since I began dancing six months ago: I first went to this school (to learn International Latin Ballroom) because I was dissatisfied with the first school I went to and where I took an intro package of four lessons. At the new school, I was introduced to my teacher, who is from Europe originally with 13 years of dancing experience and competing, and teaching--don't know exactly for how long.

I had no idea what Bronze, Silver or Gold syllabi steps were, I just followed what he taught me. I was doing privates twice a week.

Along the way, he convinced me to dance for the Bronze medal which was then a few months away.

We continued to meet twice a week for privates, but I started getting bored sticking to just the Bronze steps. He then introduced some Silver steps because we had plenty of time to learn things before the test.

However he explained that I would only be dancing for the Bronze medal. When the date of the test drew closer he reverted to the Bronze steps only and we spent several weeks focusing on technique.

I complained to him telling him I was bored and no longer having fun. He said to trust him and continue because he was focusing on technique that would benefit me and improve all my other dances later.

Meanwhile, I started taking several salsa classes and also shopped around at various schools to see how different teachers conducted their classes. Frankly I was shocked at the level of dancing I saw specially since many of these focused on more social dancing styles or street Latin styles as opposed to International Ballroom. I found a sore lack of technique and plenty of fancy stuff going on, and I began to appreciate what I was learning with my pro.

I also noticed that I could very easily learn these social or street dances and even my salsa became quite easy to pick up due to the foundations my pro was building with me in our classes.

For the first time today, I saw how all the other students at our school, at all levels up to Gold, danced and was able to compare them with what i saw at the other schools. To my surprise, six months into my dancing at this school (as well as viewing dvds of Russian pros and various YOUTUBE clips of high level competitors), I found myself looking for more...first, technique in the dancers, and second, expressiveness and style. I also was able to discern when some teachers had fancy routines for their students who were not even yet capable of executing them well. This made me appreciate my teacher's decision to stick to the simplest bronze syllabus steps with me until the technique improved greatly (from the time I started).

I also saw Silver and Gold dancers today in the test doing complicated steps but of course each of them had their own level of skill and style...no matter how complicated...I would say there were good and bad dancers at all levels, so honestly, saying you are a Bronze, Silver or Gold level dancer does not really say anything, it is how you actually dance on the floor and when people see you that will show WHAT KIND OF DANCER and HOW GOOD you really are, no matter what level...

My personal goal is to dance with solid technique and strong expression of style, to look natural and graceful and to dance with a lot of soul. I don't want to compete and I don't want to look like an athlete, I want to look like a graceful dancer who wins the admiration of the audience due to my style, ease and natural movements.

I hope this story helps you to realize what the benefit of sticking to the simplest steps can be....

 

[dancingirldancing]

I don't understand why would anyone needs to learn a lot of steps unless it is for choreography.

I generally take about 2 mins to learn a step and 20 years to perfect it.

That is 1 mins and 59 secs too long for my teacher who thinks that I need to be able to pick up new steps and 2 mins worth of choreography in 1 sec.

He just does not have the patience of going over steps and choreo.

So I know all the syllabus steps it is a non issue for me and I can follow most things in a social except for unknown open routines of some jerks.

Now I don't have a partner to practice choreo with 50% of my latin lesson consists of walking. Yep walking back and forth perfecting my cha cha, samba, rumba, or whatever it is my teacher feels need the most improvement for the week.

The other half consists of dissecting things like new yorker, or voltas or whatever basic steps my teacher feels need dissecting for the week.

My standard lesson consists of my learning to move and balance. I have been having this basic routine for a year that I have been working on (mix of bronze, silver and gold) but still basically pretty easy. Next year if I am good I will get a harder routine apparently....

But WOW ! These basic steps does not look that basic anymore done well !

Even my walks start to look like something really fancy ... well after more than 500 hours year of lesson and practice ...

 

[DL]

Thanks, but...

I think I didn't put quite the right spin on my question. I'll try again tonight or over the weekend when I'm not at work and have more time.

Whoops, I didn't find time for quite a while, there.

As for my "swimming upstream" question:

I have never, for example, been in a group class at any level, where all the students requested, "let's work on the natural turn, please."

Likewise, as far as I can see, group classes tend to follow syllabus levels, and introduce new and more advanced figures/patterns as students progress through them.

At local college comps, most amateur couples seem to prefer adding higher-level syllabus steps to their dancing, as they move through syllabus levels. And why not? The comp rules seem to favor this, at least on the surface. Popular thinking does, too; my own partner for years flat out refused to believe me that we could compete in, say, gold, without necessarily dancing a routine that included gold steps.

AFAICT most of my peer group is not motivated by a strong desire to learn/drill fundamentals. In fact I don't think my peer group is all that unique. People learning anything like to have a sense that they're making progress, and in dancing one way (and perhaps the most intuitive/popular way) to gain such a sense is to learn more and more complicated patterns.

In turn, I think this phenomenon tends to shape the way teachers teach, as they try to provide the best possible path forward for people who seem intent upon taking certain popular routes through the learning process.

Even on DF, it's been quoted more than once that beginners want to work on intermediate steps, intermediates want to work on advanced steps, advanced dancers want to work on basic steps. People say this as if it points out the wisdom of working on basics. In fact it also points out *precisely* that most people don't work on basics in the beginning. Maybe most people are "doing it wrong" but as a practical matter is it truly more profitable to buck the trend?

So in a certain sense it's as if the best thing I could do is to hurry up and plow through all the basic material in a hurry, learn a bunch of open routines and dance them poorly for a while, then -- finally -- join the ranks of dance students who are "good enough" to work on the basic things. It seems like a waste of a year or two in some sense, but its not like there's nothing to be learned on that path and meanwhile it sometimes seems like an equivalent waste to be bucking "the way things are done".

I could isolate myself from the community to greater or lesser degree and take my own direction in mostly private lessons, but that has its own disadvantages (even putting aside the issue of cost).

It's ancillary to my main question, but relevant, that as I've progressed through syllabus and some open material I have experienced exactly what Josh pointed out, that one realizes the specific practical importance of certain basic techniques more fully, when one is exposed to the advanced figures in which they are applied.

 

[madmaximus]

DL
"Swimming Up Stream" is never an easy proposition--as you've probably found out.

Like you, I found that the route I took, putting technique as first and foremost, was a grossly UNpopular one among my peers (as you have found out with yours).
True, most teachers need to bow to the needs of economics and the demands of their market--but you know what, there are many who wish they could teach proficiency in technique and expression.
Like you, even my early partners didn't put any stock to the wisdom of learning the parts well.
Like many, their focus was more advanced steps.
Their rationale was simple--those were the steps they saw the "higher" level dancers were winning with.
And who wouldn't be tempted by that?


My dedication to learning the basics well, stemmed from two things.
First, I spoke to several judges (when I was a newb, not even in bronze), and asked what I should learn, what they valued on the competition dance floor, and WHAT WOULD GET ME UP THERE FASTER--unanimously, they said proficiency in technique and then expression.

Second, upon hearing what the judges had to say, I created a LONG-TERM strategy for getting better, based on the advise of my betters.


So...
Yes, everyone wants advanced steps (who wouldn't)
Yes, unless you find joy in it (which I still do), drills and fundamentals are boring--particularly when you don't understand why you're doing them. and
Yes, you can hurry up, learn the more complex moves, and correct them later...



But...despite my limited repertoire I:
Got asked more at socials (I became a better leader),
Won more competitions (the little I knew, I was better at), and
Had lesser bad habits than my peers (because I learned the figures correctly when it was time to learn them).

And while my peers learned advanced steps--and were ahead of me in the first two years--I went right past them thereafter, and never looked back.

Of course this confounded my peers, and it was much to their chagrin to know the reason I went faster.



You asked for insight DL, and all I can say at this point is this:

It is much harder to RELEARN how to do a step correctly than to learn it right the first time, when you are proficient with the supporting movement for a step (I know this to be true after observing my peers and students spend time unlearning bad habits).

When you have a long-term strategy that you have considered well, and stick with it despite what others are doing, you will understand that "setbacks" (i.e., peer envy, grass is better syndrome) are a programmed part of that strategic process.

Lastly, whether you go one or another way, I would advise you to do what you think is right for you--not because others say so, or because it is popular--but because you believe in what you're doing.






m

 

[DL]

max -- thanks

 

[TinyDancer109]

But...despite my limited repertoire I:
Got asked more at socials (I became a better leader),
Won more competitions (the little I knew, I was better at), and
Had lesser bad habits than my peers (because I learned the figures correctly when it was time to learn them).

And while my peers learned advanced steps--and were ahead of me in the first two years--I went right past them thereafter, and never looked back.
....
It is much harder to RELEARN how to do a step correctly than to learn it right the first time, when you are proficient with the supporting movement for a step (I know this to be true after observing my peers and students spend time unlearning bad habits).

Well said, max! *swoon* :ladiesma:

 

[Mengu]

...wise words...

This is always good to hear, but then the question is, when and how do we decide it's time to move on. I danced bronze for what now feels like an insanely long time. When I moved to silver, I was feeling it was well past time to do so. We danced silver for a couple years. And then one day a guest coach told us we looked bored (not boring, bored, he thought we should challenge ourselves more). We decided it's time to move onto gold. Our regular coach didn't disagree.

Off and on I ponder if that was a mistake, if we should have stuck with Silver, because I don't feel confident enough with our gold yet (even though we have a lot of silver and bronze in some routines), but I also know we have to push ourselves to get better.

Doesn't working on a gold routine also improve silver and bronze steps? Is it really the steps you do, that determine your level, or is it the quality with which you execute them? Right now, I feel like a silver dancer, dancing gold steps. But how would I become a gold dancer without doing what I'm doing now? Perhaps we could keep working on silver steps to the point where we are dancing them as well as a gold level dancer, but why not introduce gold steps into the process since that's the level we're trying to attain?

And the question remains, when do you decide it's time to move on? When you've won a dozen comps? What if you don't do that many comps? When your coach decides he's had enough of your bronze? When an outsider says you need to push yourself more? When you are utterly bored with your level? When you can do every step perfectly as your instructor told you to do? (good luck getting anywhere with that last one)

 

[dancingirldancing]

How do define perfectly ?

You may not even get past spin turn until you die !

I think there should be a BALANCE beteween learning new steps and going over basic for newbies.

 

[dancingirldancing]

When you can do every step perfectly as your instructor told you to do? (good luck getting anywhere with that last one)

This is time to change instructor as he has no more to give you ?

 

[Chris Stratton]

The material you use and the level you enter are only linked in the sense that you cannot use things that aren't allowed, but you are by no means required to use things that are...