Cabeceo and Other "Rules"

[Tango Newbie]

AIUI, your work background is in the military, which is an environment with relatively few women compared to just about any other workplace.

I served a half of my 24 year military career in the reserves. The younger, first term Marines are almost exclusively single, and the career Marines are generally married. I have worked in the biotech industry for 30 years now, and there are not many in the same company who are married or dating each other, but some are married to other biotech professionals who work in other companies.

So, there isn't a lot of "watercooler" flings and flirting going on.

 

[Tango Newbie]

If you wanted the first tanda with her, why weren't you on the floor already? Maybe I'm reading something into this, but it did not appear to me that you had just arrived; I got the impression that you two were sitting listening to the music.

Cabeceo is not usually used when sitting at the same table with someone, even in BA

We had just sat down after one tanda had played, and he (the host of the milonga who also gave us a class beforehand) came over and asked before we had the chance to dance.

As for the most recent situation, we actually just walked into the ballroom, found a couple unoccupied seats, and before I sat down I popped out the door to lock our stuff inside (that we didn't need). I also took a couple minutes to pay the host for the milonga. And while my GF was inside settling in, she apparently turned down two other leaders, when a 'Russian' leader came over and sat next to her (where I was going to sit), He chatted with a woman on his right, then turned to his left where my GF was sitting and verbally asked her. So (according to her) to not come off as a 'tango snob' she reluctantly accepted that 'first tanda' with the stranger. What I expected, and made clear in the past, is that we save the first and last tanda for each other. That's it, nothing else.

I will say, the rules (codigos and use of the cabeceo) seems to be something that's NOT universally used or enforced, and many communities don't follow them, which is something I'm just now learning. That said, from the 'rules and etiquette' I've seen that are supposedly part of tango, it's NOT acceptable for a leader to 'corner' a follower, put her on the spot, and verbally 'ask' for a dance (hence the cabeceo). For you tangueros and tangueras in the forum, I'm sure most of you who believe in tradition would agree that it's poor form. And what I expected from my GF was for her to tell this leader she'd dance with him (later) after she and I had the first tanda. This is not only reasonable, but respectful to me and our relationship. I would not accept a tanda from a follower before me and my GF danced, nor would I want the last tanda of a milonga to be with someone other than my GF.

 

[tangoing]

I think you're just looking too much into this, as long as she's not openly flirting with other leads and you end up going home with her I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Tango Newbie]

So, the issue is that, verbal rules aren't worth the paper they're written on (misquoting Samuel Goldwyn). It's a convention, not universally accepted, or even known. Etiquette in your locale most likely differs from etiquette in Europe or Asia. It's even different at other milongas. No rules posted. No enforcement.

So, the codigos, as an extrapolation from what someone thought was a good idea in BsAs may be meaningless (as noted in other threads). It's a myth we construct about [better] past times in another place. Maybe some got written up in a book or post that you read?

If you travel to other countries then you observe and learn the 'rules' people apply there.

It's that old film theme of respect. You disrespectin' me? And what do you do about it? Knives out? Fume? Never attend again?

AT is more than just a dance. It's about socialising within the norms (codigos) of that locale. It's about men (as leaders) asking women (as followers) (or vice-versa) to dance - in an intimate connection in a managed environment. Like any other situation (work, study, exercise, gym, shopping) more can develop, but for most it's just about the dance - but some will always try to explore. Is it different from the woman away on business alone in a hotel bar getting hit on? Or the guy in a relationship, but away on business, doing it?

If you've got a secure relationship, it's not a problem. Someone requests a dance with my wife as soon as we arrive? So what? He's a jerk if he knows us, or an ignorant novice if not. Or maybe the last dance (unknowingly)? Well, we're not going to let it spoil our lives.

I always like your perspective. I'm actually a 'normal' guy with what I feel are reasonable expectations. What I'm now learning from folks like you here in the forum is how little codigos (and cabeceo) are used/enforced. However, I found it interesting that one host of a milonga we attended 3 weeks ago mentioned in his event invitation that "codigos would be enforced", yet came over to our table before me and my GF danced our first tanda, and he asked me if it would be okay to dance with her. Since he's an old friend and former instructor of hers, was gracious to ask me first, and was in-line with what I thought was a codigo, I was 'okay' with it. But, I also reminded my GF later that I made an exception in this case.

You are spot on about tango being "more that just a dance" and is about socializing (we use the 'z' here in the US, btw) within the 'norms' of the local scene. My GF has encouraged me to dance with other (beginner/intermediate) followers so I can gain experience, which I do and don't mind (and see the benefit), but as of now it's nice to have her to help correct things and work on complex steps together.

Although I don't usually discriminate, but at 5'10", 190 lbs, I find a couple followers to be a little too challenging to dance with (height/size differentiation being the main ones). That said, I encourage my GF to dance with other more experienced dancers, but with the caveat that I get the "lion's share" of dances before her feet get sore or she gets tired. She lasts only a couple hours due to her long days as a doctor, while I work remotely (for now) as an engineer in biotech, and have more energy than she does.

One thing my GF seems to be interested in, is us showing up at a milonga as a couple, and it seems all the dancers in our local community are well aware of us, and respect it. My GF and I talked about the 'first and last tanda' issue I had this past weekend, then inquired about her expectations of me. Hers were somewhat nebulous (that I have fun), but she also said she didn't want me to attend a milonga without her, since there's one after my class on Fridays (that she doesn't always attend with me). I was completely 'okay' with that, and actually said I don't want to attend any milongas alone or without her (which she was happy about). One thing she regularly does, is inquire about the followers I dance with in the classes I attend at our home studio (when she can't) and two other studios I go to without her.

Lastly, our relationship is rock solid, and I don't have any issues with self esteem or insecurities. In fact, being very youthful, athletic, and fashionable, I seem to attract a lot of women, something even my GF mentioned. Like I said in an earlier post in this discussion, this past weekend when we attended the New Years Day milonga, 3 very attractive followers (who were visitors to our studio) looked at me and smiled when we entered the room, something my GF also mentioned to me. Being an advanced beginner, I wasn't confident enough to ask any of them to dance, but danced with a couple other followers later in the evening while my GF danced with other leaders.

 

[JournalInTime]

I think you're just looking too much into this, as long as she's not openly flirting with other leads and you end up going home with her I don't see what the big deal is.

As my girlfriend says about me, "He knows his way home and he always sleeps in our bed."

Which makes me wonder whether maybe we're not overlooking something: Monogamous tango couples who don't live together, and thus who don't leave the milonga together to come home together. I suppose I can see a little room for doubt there because the default assumption isn't "comes home with me, sleeps in the same bed."

I still believe that couples need to be trusting regardless of their living arrangements, but I'll admit that I'm speaking from a "I've lived with my life and dance partner for years" perspective. I've never experienced "I've been with my life and dance partner for a while, but we leave for separate residences," so I don't really get to have an opinion on it.

 

[Tango Newbie]

I think you're just looking too much into this, as long as she's not openly flirting with other leads and you end up going home with her I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm not "looking too much into this" you mention. I'm talking about those unwritten 'rules and good etiquette' in tango, one of which (for me) is the 'first and last tanda' that are (supposedly) reserved for couples, and that good tangueros and tangueras should know, or heard about, with the other being the use (or lack) of the cabeceo.

And no my GF isn't one to "openly flirt" with other leads, and conversely I'm not flirting with other followers.

What I find most rewarding at the moment is when she dances with another 'coupled leader' and I get to dance with his partner (spouse / GF). One thing my GF mentioned this past weekend when she danced with a leader (who was also a friend of hers and her former instructor) and I danced with his partner, was that my GF watched me and her. One thing I noticed with this follower was she 'embellished' many of the steps I led, more so than my GF does with me.

 

[JournalInTime]

However, I found it interesting that one host of a milonga we attended 3 weeks ago mentioned in his event invitation that "codigos would be enforced", yet came over to our table before me and my GF danced our first tanda, and he asked me if it would be okay to dance with her.

Thing is, "first and last tanda with your SO" isn't a código, but a local tradition. Whereas "ask the other half of a couple before inviting their SO to dance" (which, for macho traditionalists, amounts to "ask the man before dancing with his woman") is a código. So, this guy was doing things by the book.

One thing she regularly does, is inquire about the followers I dance with in the classes I attend at our home studio (when she can't) and two other studios I go to without her.

I go dancing alone all the time. My current partner doesn't much care who I dance with; listing all the tandas I danced would serve only to remind her that she missed out, which would make me feel like a jerk. My ex did care, and that was one of the signs that she was on the way to being my ex. She had opinions about people I should or shouldn't dance with, and definitely asked for names. I really couldn't put up with that then, and wouldn't put up with it now.

 

[opendoor]

..it's NOT acceptable for a leader to 'corner' a follower, put her on the spot, and verbally 'ask' for a dance... For you tangueros and tangueras in the forum, I'm sure most of you who believe in tradition would agree that it's poor form..

Excuse me, Tango Newbie , if I speak plainly off-topic now. You control too much. This usually makes you unattractive as it is a sign of insecurity. Give a woman the greatest possible freedom. Bind her to you through nobleness and with a large, understanding heart. Otherwise you will risk the relationship!

 

[JournalInTime]

I tend to feel that when a couple dances tango, the best approach is:

• When only Partner 1 or Partner 2 is free to attend the milonga, they should feel free to do so without guilt (a little regret that the other can't come, or a twinge of envy that the other can go, is human!).
• When Partner 1 and Partner 2 are both free to go to the milonga, it's fun to do so together, as that means however dire the event, they have at least one person with whom they like to dance.
• When Partner 1 and Partner 2 attend the milonga together, they should agree beforehand on how much they'll dance together, which can range from "not at all" to "all the tandas," with complicated stuff like "first and last," "all the valses," and "our song" in the middle. "All the tandas" should be rare – something that follows a long dry spell of not dancing together.
• When attending alone, or not currently dancing with Partner 2, Partner 1 dances with whomever they like.
• When attending alone, or not currently dancing with Partner 1, Partner 2 dances with whomever they like.
• "Forbidden partner lists" should be short to nonexistent – typically, people the whole community agrees are actively dangerous or creepy.

When people start hemming and hawing about that, it's a sign of controlling behavior.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Thing is, "first and last tanda with your SO" isn't a código, but a local tradition. Whereas "ask the other half of a couple before inviting their SO to dance" (which, for macho traditionalists, amounts to "ask the man before dancing with his woman") is a código. So, this guy was doing things by the book.

Yes, thanks for clarifying, and that's why it made sense, despite our previously agreed upon tradition of the 'first and last tanda' being reserved for us.

I go dancing alone all the time. My current partner doesn't much care who I dance with; listing all the tandas I danced would serve only to remind her that she missed out, which would make me feel like a jerk. My ex did care, and that was one of the signs that she was on the way to being my ex. She had opinions about people I should or shouldn't dance with, and definitely asked for names. I really couldn't put up with that then, and wouldn't put up with it now.

As I mentioned in the earlier post my GF doesn't want me going to milongas without her, and I'm totally 'okay' with that. For us, tango has turned into an activity we do together, not separately. I will say, my 'ex' (who also happens to be a Latina) would have cared, and would not only be against me dancing with other women (even if she was present), but going alone would have never been allowed. But that's not the reason we're no longer together.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Excuse me, @Tango Newbie , if I speak plainly off-topic now. You control too much. This usually makes you unattractive as it is a sign of insecurity. Give a woman the greatest possible freedom. Bind her to you through nobleness and with a large, understanding heart. Otherwise you will risk the relationship!

"Understanding heart" about what? I don't "control" my GF, but conversely I have reasonable expectations, just like most 'normal' guys have. Reserving the 'first and last tanda' isn't "controlling", it's a tradition (in some scenes), and one that I/we want to adopt. Also, I encourage my GF to dance with other leaders, just as she encourages me.

Quite frankly, although my GF is a 'seasoned veteran' of the tango scene, she also tends to be aware of the fact that I'm the one other followers (and women in general) are interested in (initially), and says as a leader I'm a sought-after commodity. I don't want to disparage her character, but she gives me the low-down on some of the followers, and even points out things about them (that one has implants, that other one has hair extensions, etc.). In case you haven't followed my posts, that seemed to have taken a turn towards tango crossing over and affecting relationships, this is not what my posts have been about.

I'm only trying to "play by the unwritten rules" and follow "good etiquette" (including the cabeceo), things I'm now finding aren't universally accepted or enforced.

 

[opendoor]

You don't have to take my advice either. And actually I don't want to continue to post publicly about this aspect. But believe me, I've gotten around the world well, what you call the behavior of a "normal guy" is not normal, at all. And you are using by far too many nerve impulses to analyze and understand people's behavior at milongas. Be more relaxed.

 

[JournalInTime]

Quite frankly, although my GF is a 'seasoned veteran' of the tango scene, she also tends to be aware of the fact that I'm the one other followers (and women in general) are interested in (initially), and says as a leader I'm a sought-after commodity.

To be totally honest with you, that sounds like a common situation that is about control, but by your partner, not you. Namely, in many tango communities – all the ones I've seen, but people here have said that it isn't universal – followers far, far outnumber leaders. Here it ranges from 3:2 to as much as 3:1; I was once at an event where I was the leader and there were 15-20 followers. Under circumstances like that, any leader is a commodity, and followers coupled up with leaders know it and don't always want to share. That's too bad for the other followers, but it's also human nature . . . and it has nothing to do with romance, and everything to do with retaining an advantage.

I recently had a conversation with my partner. She said she loves going out to dance with me, but feels as if she's in competition with a bunch of other followers whenever we go out, because there are more followers than leaders, and if I don't dance with her, her odds of dancing a tanda are low. She isn't worried about the non-tango intentions of other followers who dance with me, but about waiting among the many followers who "didn't bother to bring a partner." She's well aware that's putting it harshly, but to be fair, she worked on finding a partner (me) . . . so what are those other people doing?

So, that element might be present. Of course, your partner might word things to make it sound like it's your idea. But my experience is that 9 times in 10, when a leader in a couple dances only with his partner, it's his partner's idea. The exceptions are new leaders who are too shy to invite, but that doesn't sound like your issue.

 

[Tango Newbie]

I tend to feel that when a couple dances tango, the best approach is:

• When only Partner 1 or Partner 2 is free to attend the milonga, they should feel free to do so without guilt (a little regret that the other can't come, or a twinge of envy that the other can go, is human!).
• When Partner 1 and Partner 2 are both free to go to the milonga, it's fun to do so together, as that means however dire the event, they have at least one person with whom they like to dance.
• When Partner 1 and Partner 2 attend the milonga together, they should agree beforehand on how much they'll dance together, which can range from "not at all" to "all the tandas," with complicated stuff like "first and last," "all the valses," and "our song" in the middle. "All the tandas" should be rare – something that follows a long dry spell of not dancing together.
• When attending alone, or not currently dancing with Partner 2, Partner 1 dances with whomever they like.
• When attending alone, or not currently dancing with Partner 1, Partner 2 dances with whomever they like.
• "Forbidden partner lists" should be short to nonexistent – typically, people the whole community agrees are actively dangerous or creepy.

When people start hemming and hawing about that, it's a sign of controlling behavior.

Although my GF and I both agree we don't want to go to milongas alone, I totally respect your situation. Unlike a lot of dancers, we have other interests, so tango is an activity we've chosen to do together, and almost all of the dancers in our scene are there with their SO, with only a small few who attend milongas without their SO.

We haven't gone down that road of a "forbidden partner list", but while my GF encourages me to dance with others, she mentioned that she watches me when dancing with those (few) followers I dance with. I, on the other hand, am too busy 'leading' to notice her with the other leader (when we're out there together).

To be be honest, while my GF encourages me to dance with other followers, I'm proceeding with caution so I don't step on any toes, literally and figuratively. Typically I dance with partners (SO's) of leaders she dances with, a few students from my classes, and a few single ladies (who she knows, who have been sitting longer than most followers, and who may be more forgiving of my newness). Since my GF has been patient with me, and before we go to a practalonga or milonga, I tell her; "I know dancers want to (usually) dance with the good dancers, so it's a 'guilt-free zone', sweetie, so dance with whoever you want."

But what's actually happening is, she may dance with another leader (usually the husband of old friends of hers), and I'll dance with the wife (most of the time). And since I'm waiting it out for the time being of dancing with other followers (my own choice), I know she feels 'guilty' some of the time when I'm sitting on the sidelines. And when she's dancing, I'm actually studying the footwork of the leaders on the floor close to me, and only occasionally glancing in her direction to see the adornments she executes (to learn those leads as well).

 

[Tango Newbie]

o be totally honest with you, that sounds like a common situation that is about control, but by your partner, not you. Namely, in many tango communities – all the ones I've seen, but people here have said that it isn't universal – followers far, far outnumber leaders. Here it ranges from 3:2 to as much as 3:1; I was once at an event where I was the leader and there were 15-20 followers. Under circumstances like that, any leader is a commodity, and followers coupled up with leaders know it and don't always want to share. That's too bad for the other followers, but it's also human nature . . . and it has nothing to do with romance, and everything to do with retaining an advantage.

I recently had a conversation with my partner. She said she loves going out to dance with me, but feels as if she's in competition with a bunch of other followers whenever we go out, because there are more followers than leaders, and if I don't dance with her, her odds of dancing a tanda are low. She isn't worried about the non-tango intentions of other followers who dance with me, but about waiting among the many followers who "didn't bother to bring a partner." She's well aware that's putting it harshly, but to be fair, she worked on finding a partner (me) . . . so what are those other people doing?

So, that element might be present. Of course, your partner might word things to make it sound like it's your idea. But my experience is that 9 times in 10, when a leader in a couple dances only with his partner, it's his partner's idea. The exceptions are new leaders who are too shy to invite, but that doesn't sound like your issue.

You are completely correct (especially in my situation) and spot on. My GF mentioned the disparity on countless occasions. I will say, our scene isn't quite as dramatic as the 3:1 ratio (F-L), but there are definitely more followers, and my GF told me once I get good enough to venture on my own (versus those few tandas I dance with partners of the leaders she dances with) a lot of followers will be vying for my attention, and I'll be a sought-after commodity. It was then that I told her she's my priority.

We talked about the use (and lack thereof) of the cabeceo, and how it wasn't used on her by the leader this past Saturday. I was a little surprised she allowed that leader to sit down next to her and verbally ask before we had a chance to dance a tanda (but that subject is now 'moot' since it seems the cabeceo is rarely used, at least locally). Her argument to me was, when we go to the next festival, I should expect quite a few followers to verbally 'ask me' to dance (versus using the cabeceo), and inquired what my reaction is going to be. One thing I stressed was (that she was glad to hear), if it happens before we get to dance, I will be polite and explain it to those followers, with a commitment to dance later.

As for the "competition thing", I know my GF has great skills and doesn't have a problem attracting leaders, but she's also a little on the "protective" side with me, presumably since years ago she had a past relationship with another dancer (who she was engaged to at one point) that didn't work out, and is now ecstatic she now has a partner (me). Still, we both know our relationship is rock solid, and I'm not a 'player' or creep, and there's absolutely no trust issues with us (we're too smart and mature to cheat). I believe she just wants to be the one I enjoy dancing with the most (which I do). Although it crosses both genders, from my perspective women seem to be more concerned with things like this (competition).

You're right, I'm not 'shy' whatsoever (in asking other followers), I'm just holding off from diving-in head-first and asking other followers until I sharpen some skills (and I'm actually almost there), but treading into this with open eyes.