Can someone without a dance background really be competitive in WCS?

[opendoor]

..advanced WCS dancer from the outside, but once we started moving, he had total noodle arms...

Do you know the difference between the adjectives "elastic" (delayed resistance) and "plastic" (no resistance)? A rubber band shows elastic elongination, a noodle shows plastic elongination (it will tear). Also, there is a physical component to the lead-follow technique. But the leader also projects the intended movement.

 

[Steve Pastor]

he had total noodle arms

I looked at a John Javna book on Jitterbug to see a take on what the called spaghetti arms, and it was a term used for followers.

It would be nice if you could elaborate where and when that lead had noodle arms.

Here's a bit from April 1953 SWING NOTfrom Murray studios. (It was followed by using the term West Coast Swing several times. In other words Western Swing WAS West Coast Swing back then.

Western Swing is smoother and more sophisticated since we have elimin
ated the need for strong, muscular leads. In this list we are trying to
present footwork as it is danced, Neither partner should ever go out to full
arms length for more room may be needed to catch balance or to complete a
pattern. Therefore, both partners should keep firm tension (not pull) in a
slightly bent arm. There should not be a strong pull on a back rocking step
when the girl is in open position, for she may want to do a syncopated step
and be pulled off balance.

It would be nice if you could elaborate where and when in the lead there were noodle arms.

 

[Mengu]

I’ve danced with a lead who looks like an advanced WCS dancer from the outside, but once we started moving, he had total noodle arms.That was a real eye-opener for me what's actually going on in WCS. But I've also danced with many leads who have a really nice feel. Unlike in BR, without proper lead and follow techniques, the dance looks forced and awkward

Noodle arm lead is not uncommon. Many instructors teach, the leader should connect through their back, not try to manufacture a connection through their arms. To maintain the bend in the elbow, some eccentric contraction is expected of course, as the follow reaches the end of the rope. But otherwise the arm can remain quite relaxed. There is of course variation on preferences of different dancers, also influenced by their background, experience, and skill level. It's part of the fun of J&J to figure out how to dance with any partner using any technique. Whenever I'm dancing with a new partner, there is a calibration period, where we dance a few basics, as we negotiate what techniques will work for our dance.

 

[joy]

Noodle arm lead is not uncommon. Many instructors teach, the leader should connect through their back, not try to manufacture a connection through their arms. To maintain the bend in the elbow, some eccentric contraction is expected of course, as the follow reaches the end of the rope. But otherwise the arm can remain quite relaxed. There is of course variation on preferences of different dancers, also influenced by their background, experience, and skill level. It's part of the fun of J&J to figure out how to dance with any partner using any technique. Whenever I'm dancing with a new partner, there is a calibration period, where we dance a few basics, as we negotiate what techniques will work for our dance.

My biggest arm learning epiphany recently is in smooth it’s actually “noodles” from elbow to hand. I had always thought it was all arms engaged. But it’s elbow to elbow.
Elbow to hand is relaxed.

In WCS of course is back engaged but arms relaxed.

That said hand/grip in both are engaged.

Also in WCS the old school style is engaged lead/follow through out every measure but in the new school the middle of like inside turn or some measures the frame gets loose and the follow have freedom.

 

[neveragain]

Wow, that’s a lot of questions about ‘noodle arms’! Honestly, I haven’t been to a WCS event in over a year since I’ve been busy with competitive BR. It’s been a while since I’ve called a lead out for having noodle arms. Maybe it’s the wrong term, but even on a simple sugar push, there was just no 'wall' there to stop me. I don't know about you but I love the gooey feeling of basic sugar push

 

[vit]

Wow, that’s a lot of questions about ‘noodle arms’! Honestly, I haven’t been to a WCS event in over a year since I’ve been busy with competitive BR. It’s been a while since I’ve called a lead out for having noodle arms. Maybe it’s the wrong term, but even on a simple sugar push, there was just no 'wall' there to stop me. I don't know about you but I love the gooey feeling of basic sugar push

I liked to it do it elastic way, by gradually compressing my and follower's arms, so that she stopped moving forward and returned back. Wouldn't describe my role as a "wall" actually. And I didn't like followers to run into me like a truck either ... At least that's how we were dancing a sugar push.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Made me think of my favorite Sugar Push story. Mary Ann Nunez was one of the people who stopped in at Skippy Blair's Intensive back in 2011. Mary Ann was my partner when we started worked on the Sugar Push (aka Push Break, but there really is a subtle difference) Anyhow, it was so cool when Mary Ann actually came forward enough to create a noticeable compression that I blurted out , "Now THAT'S a SUgar Push!"

As far back as we have records that I know of the guys were taught to not let their elbows go behind their body.

 

[vit]

Made me think of my favorite Sugar Push story. Mary Ann Nunez was one of the people who stopped in at Skippy Blair's Intensive back in 2011. Mary Ann was my partner when we started worked on the Sugar Push (aka Push Break, but there really is a subtle difference)

Somewhere on Facebook I found an explanation (not sure how correct it is, but makes sense to me) that "sugar" actually refers to swivels done by a follower in first two steps - used in other swing styles (in jive those are used in a figure named chicken walk for instance). But in WCS these are mostly just two forward steps - so Skippy came with a name Push Break which is probably more suitable. However, most people still seem to be using existing name (Sugar push)

 

[Mengu]

Wow, that’s a lot of questions about ‘noodle arms’! Honestly, I haven’t been to a WCS event in over a year since I’ve been busy with competitive BR. It’s been a while since I’ve called a lead out for having noodle arms. Maybe it’s the wrong term, but even on a simple sugar push, there was just no 'wall' there to stop me. I don't know about you but I love the gooey feeling of basic sugar push

Yeah noodle arms is probably not what's wrong, your leader was likely not setting good boundaries for you, and that's a complaint I've heard about some advanced leaders.

In a sugar push, personally, I don't like to create a wall either, I prefer to absorb the weight, but I will adjust to my follow. For a follow who is not giving weight, and just wants to bounce themselves away, I'll accommodate, and just dance their dance.

 

[Mengu]

As far back as we have records that I know of the guys were taught to not let their elbows go behind their body.

Maybe historically, but that's not how it's taught or danced these days. Whether the elbow goes behind the body or not is a choice based on how we're managing the distance, how we're paneling our bodies, where we want to create contrast, etc. Elbow most certainly can and does go behind the body, I'd even say that is closer to the current baseline sugar push.

 

[vit]

Elbow most certainly can and does go behind the body, I'd even say that is closer to the current baseline sugar push.

Sure they do, because the followers almost didn't contract their arms at all ... other extreme is when a follower let her arms contract almost with no force and then panicking and suddenly stiffening them up last moment

My preference is that arms of both leader and follower are like springs - zero force around neutral position, with force rising in proportion with amount of extension or contraction

 

[Mengu]

My preference is that arms of both leader and follower are like springs - zero force around neutral position, with force rising in proportion with amount of extension or contraction

Totally valid preference, just not the only one. Kyle and Sarah PoV is follow maintains frame, leader manages frame, so she does less absorption on her side. Nicole absorbs to an extent in the arms as she's getting closer, but once in compression, maintains the angle of the elbow and absorbs the compression into her back. I can post more examples if you want, but you can just as easily watch some of the champions and see they use a variety of sugar pushes where the leader's elbow may stay in front, or slide behind.

 

[vit]

I can post more examples if you want, but you can just as easily watch some of the champions and see they use a variety of sugar pushes where the leader's elbow may stay in front, or slide behind.

No disagreement here actually. Just wanted to point out that there was a geometrical reason for leader's elbows moving behind his back no matter how it is taught. And it's one thing if follower actually knows how to control tension in her arms but intentionally decides to leave them more straight (for instance, to avoid coming too close for whatever reason) and another thing if she is not good in doing that ...

 

[Steve Pastor]

Somewhere on Facebook I found an explanation

This is marterial from Skippy Blair intensives 2010 & 2011.

11. PUSH BREAK: (similar to, but advanced version of a SUGAR PUSH)
Leader: Back on "1"- Together in 3rd on count "2"- Small "Forward & together Forward" on "3&a4" (releasing her Left hand on "4")- Anchor in place on "5&a6". (Compression takes place oncount "3"- Leader provides the wall- Follower determines how far to go out).
Follower: Forward R, Forward L on "1-2"- Very small Forward R on toe base on "3&" Back L, in place on "a" and a stronger Back Step on Right Foot on "4"- Anchor in place on "5&a6."
Historical: Under the name "Sugar Push" , the Push Break has been around since 1952. Unfortunately,this pattern has frequently been taught as Pattern #1, which is far too early for anyone to learn compression. Without compression, the pattern simply keeps time, while the Leader figures out what to do next. Being taught as pattern #1, is the result of an early "Step List" of 5 patterns that was prepared ONLY to be used as a "Fix-It" list. It was prepared for the original Swing Dance Council, for those traveling around the country. The year was 1985.The list was never meant to be a set of basics- simply a set of patterns for teachers to fix.The Name Change came about for two reasons: #1. Because the old-timers swiveled in on every step ofa Sugar Push. They claimed, (and rightfully so) that the pattern was named after the old Sugar Foot. A Sugar Foot was (and still IS) 100% little tiny swivels. (Still a popular move in Lindy). The name change was voted on at a huge turnout of the original Council- and the name "Push Break" was adopted at that time. #2. Many teachers who teach compression on "3" use the name Push Break to separate the two different versions. They see a Sugar Push as being done with a Tap Step as counts "3-4" and no compression on "3."

 

[vit]

So it looks like swivels / Sugar Foot from Lindy are part of the story, but main difference for Skippy is no compression in Sugar Push. Not sure how it looks like in that case ...

Most people seem to agree that in "Push Break version", compression starts around 3, peaks around & and then vanishes until 4, unless, of course, leader changes that ...