Children's ballroom dancing in the US

[IndyLady]

All schooling can be done remotely

Sorry, nope.

My son (now 9) did not do well at all with remote learning during the pandemic. We got to experience it for both regular school and tae kwon do (I'd need a separate post for the meltdowns during those classes). It turns out it is very hard to keep 20+ 3rd graders all on separate Zoom screens under control and engaged. My son had (has) a very difficult time staying focused and not getting rambunctious if someone wasn't watching over him. We often had to slog through assignments with him. Even now during e-learning days (where they just give the kids assignments to complete independently) one of us has to at least check in on him frequently and sometimes help him through it. He doesn't these issues in the classroom.

Oh, and I am wealthy (for the purposes of this discussion) and I work from home. We are in one of the top school districts in the state (admittedly not a high bar for this state, but still). I have a basement office, but I still find it nearly impossible to concentrate when my son is home, even though he is upstairs. Every time he walks or jumps off the couch it sounds like a ton of bricks hit the floor above me (it's a very sharp, jarring noise). He gets to ride the bus home a couple times a week and hence arrives before my workday is finished, but otherwise he still goes to after-care.

My spouse is a college professor. He teaches math to people who suck at math. His students also sucked at remote learning.

Remote learning is not 100% ineffective, but it's really only useful for a subset of highly motivated, focused, intelligent people (or students who have someone who can supervise them constantly).

That said, I do sympathize with the absences. My son was sick for almost an entire week a couple months ago, around a time when a lot of people were getting sick. He ran a fever that took days to break and had a congested cough (i.e. the kind of sick you can't just hide and send them to school and hope for the best). I called it into the absence hotline every day. Thankfully we did not have any repercussions or, my fear, a request for a doctor's note. Because there is no way I was going to take him to the doctor to spend 5 minutes hearing them say "take Tylenol" and then end up with a $150 bill for that visit. (sidenote: doctor's notes made sense back in the day when you could get a simple visit like this for $0 or $20, but nowadays you better budget $100 even at the Minute Clinics). We don't really go on vacation, but I am mindful that we've burned through a lot of allowed absences here.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

The tough thing here is that the natural conclusion to allowing failure out of classes is necessarily allowing failing out of school entirely. Otherwise, you have the potential problem of the "perpetual student" who never advances, for whatever reason. This is never going to be a common situation, but extremely costly whenever it does arise, so you want to be structurally prepared to address it.

I don't see how a "perpetual student" is more costly than any other student. You may need to allow him to fail out at the end of mandatory schooling age, but for ballroom kids, they can quit at that age anyway, so the "problem", from the perspective of ballroom talent development, goes away at that age anyway.

There's also the point you didn't address that being willing to fail students out of classes generally seems to make their overall academic progress better, not worse.

My son (now 9) did not do well at all with remote learning during the pandemic.

That demonstrates only that remote schooling as practiced in your son's case did poorly, not that it can't do well. Again, I agree that remote schooling during the pandemic, using teaching staff with experience only with in person schooling, often did poorly. Different teaching techniques are required for it to do well.

 

[IndyLady]

That demonstrates only that remote schooling as practiced in your son's case did poorly, not that it can't do well. Again, I agree that remote schooling during the pandemic, using teaching staff with experience only with in person schooling, often did poorly.

Yes, it's anecdotal. But I think the burden of proof that "remote can go well" (in a broader sense than my concession of smart motivated people) is on those who are claiming "remote can go well", not on those of us for whom it clearly did not work. This is obviously one case, but it is not unique, and there are plenty of articles in the mainstream media about the vast numbers of kids who fell behind during the remote learning phase. There was a lot of outcry about remote learning in my district (so much so, along with some other controversial social issues, that 4 existing school board members were ousted this past election and new members voted in who campaigned on those issues, and who clearly will not be stumping for any kind of remote learning).

We're a few years in now with the remote learning experiment... how much longer is it going to take to figure out how to make it work more often for a broader swath of the population (esp children) and implement?

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Yes, it's anecdotal. But I think the burden of proof that "remote can go well" (in a broader sense than my concession of smart motivated people) is on those who are claiming "remote can go well", not on those of us for whom it clearly did not work. This is obviously one case, but it is not unique, and there are plenty of articles in the mainstream media about the vast numbers of kids who fell behind during the remote learning phase. There was a lot of outcry about remote learning in my district (so much so, along with some other controversial social issues, that 4 existing school board members were ousted this past election and new members voted in who campaigned on those issues, and who clearly will not be stumping for any kind of remote learning).

This is fair. This discussion is getting somewhat unrelated to children's ballroom, though, so I've answered in a new thread here:

Remote schooling

(tangent from https://www.dance-forums.com/threads/childrens-ballroom-dancing-in-the-us.50092/page-4#post-1170796 ) Yes, it's anecdotal. But I think the burden of proof that "remote can go well" (in a broader sense than my concession of smart motivated people) is on those who are claiming...

www.dance-forums.com

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Just wanted to add a tidbit that might be appropriate for this thread. Latin studio coach included on her list of things to pack for USDC, makeup, including foundation for the boys. NDCA rules prohibit makeup for juveniles (under 12). I used this as an excuse not to put foundation on 10 year old, who had objected strenuously when we went to the makeup counter to find the right shade for him. Coach, who is of Ukrainian extraction, and may have been unaware of the rule, put makeup on the girls and maybe some of the boys.

The invigilator caught this and required the preteen girls to remove makeup. One of the girls was in tears because of this, possibly because she was juvenile partnered with a junior, and might have been worried about dancing against junior girls who were allowed makeup.

On the other hand, I know a mother of another juvenile girl who is reassured by the fact that her daughter won’t be wearing adult makeup just because she might be dancing with a slightly older partner, and was a little shocked when she saw junior (under 16) girls wearing adult competition makeup. Of course, my 14 year old daughter has started wearing makeup just to go to school in.

I don’t have any real opinion on this, but mention it as an apparent difference between the US and Europe that might have bearing on degree of participation. I also wonder if a compromise level of makeup, such as foundation and eyeliner only, might be reasonable for some age categories.

I've acquired an opinion on the related issue of juvenile/junior dress.

There are several couples in the Boston area which consist of a juvenile (under 12) girl dancing with a junior (12-15) boy. They of course have to dance in the junior age category.

In these cases, coaches generally apply pressure for the girls to dress to the category, which often means wearing costume. I believe they honestly believe those are in fact the rules, especially since those were often the rules they grew up with in Europe. People who have not actually read the rules generally assume the dress code follows the category, not the person.

In addition, the coaches may also have experience that girls are not generally disqualified for dressing appropriately for the category even if that's not allowed for the person. There don't appear to have been any such disqualifications this past weekend, for example, though the invigilators were otherwise quite strict, for example invigilating against certain stylistic interpretations of certain figures (one studio principal was going around frantically informing everyone about a stylistic interpretation that they apparently taught everyone which turned out not to be allowed).

And, on rereading the NDCA rule book, the rules are even more complicated than I realized, so I think they are easy to misinterpret.

At any rate, the rule that the most people seem to miss or assume to be nonexistent is rule X.A.4.b(1), which restricts juvenile 2s dancing up to junior, to juvenile dress. (It's also confusingly located in the age category rules rather than in the dress rules.) I'd suggest eliminating this rule, or if there are health concerns about shoes, replacing this rule to one restricting such juveniles only to staying in juvenile shoes, which most do anyway. That way, they will otherwise be permitted the same dress as anyone else in the category they are dancing in, which seems to be what most people think the rule "should" be and assume it is, and seems to be more consistent with the rules outside the US. That will also make things easier on the invigilators, who can then invigilate based on the event category, rather than having to guess or figure out individual contestants' ages.

Makeup has similar rules but may involve stickier sensibilities. Personally, I'd restrict both juvenile and junior competition categories to foundation and eyeliner, and again just let the rules go with the category and not the person, but that's just me; maybe there are 15 year olds out there whom I don't know who are just dying to use heavy mascara, eye shadow, and blush.

I get that BYU may prefer weirdly more conservative dress rules, but they aren't even dominant in the youth categories any more, and the center of mass for junior and juvenile competition is now in California and the Northeast, even if it was ever in Utah, so I don't think Utah should be the tail wagging the dog any more.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Could we ask now? (about the weird thoughts crept into your mind last week while judging)?

After this past weekend, I have to wonder if they had to do with competitor numbers pinned to the butts of open backed dresses, which was what most strongly struck me as weird.

 

[raindance]

After this past weekend, I have to wonder if they had to do with competitor numbers pinned to the butts of open backed dresses, which was what most strongly struck me as weird.

Not sure it's any odder than the rhinestones that usually cover the butts of dancers in their gowns!

 

[IndyLady]

maybe there are 15 year olds out there whom I don't know who are just dying to use heavy mascara, eye shadow, and blush.

Bring that down to 8- and 9- year old's. Little girls (not all, but many) have always aspired to adult women makeup levels, and it's probably even more pervasive now with instagram and such. I started playing with eye shadow when I was 10 or 11, until that fateful day my mom made me take it off, and then I didn't return until I was like 25. But that's the exception, especially these days. I see plenty of teenagers, many clearly <16, who look like airbrushed models in the face.

 

[IndyLady]

In addition, the coaches may also have experience that girls are not generally disqualified for dressing appropriately for the category even if that's not allowed for the person. There don't appear to have been any such disqualifications this past weekend, for example, though the invigilators were otherwise quite strict, for example invigilating against certain stylistic interpretations of certain figures (one studio principal was going around frantically informing everyone about a stylistic interpretation that they apparently taught everyone which turned out not to be allowed).

Don't make me pull teeth here, what styling is this? Inquiring minds want to know.

At any rate, the rule that the most people seem to miss or assume to be nonexistent is rule X.A.4.b(1), which restricts juvenile 2s dancing up to junior, to juvenile dress. (It's also confusingly located in the age category rules rather than in the dress rules.) I'd suggest eliminating this rule, or if there are health concerns about shoes, replacing this rule to one restricting such juveniles only to staying in juvenile shoes, which most do anyway. That way, they will otherwise be permitted the same dress as anyone else in the category they are dancing in, which seems to be what most people think the rule "should" be and assume it is, and seems to be more consistent with the rules outside the US. That will also make things easier on the invigilators, who can then invigilate based on the event category, rather than having to guess or figure out individual contestants' ages.

I don't know much about the specifics of the children's competitions. Is there a perception that dressing in junior dress is advantageous compared to juvenile dress, i.e. it makes the girl look more mature and hence gives her (and the couple) an edge with the judges? I'm curious about the shoes too, do a lot of junior girls wear really high heels (I've seen the low heel/frilly socks combo that I assume is juvenile)?

Makeup has similar rules but may involve stickier sensibilities. Personally, I'd restrict both juvenile and junior competition categories to foundation and eyeliner, and again just let the rules go with the category and not the person, but that's just me; maybe there are 15 year olds out there whom I don't know who are just dying to use heavy mascara, eye shadow, and blush.

I know I already replied to this, but one other note on this... there is no point to eyeliner if you are not also wearing mascara. I figured this out the hard way after seeing pictures of myself demonstrating that point, before I added mascara to the repertoire. And lipstick is probably the other big one here, blush you can kind of take or leave.

I get that BYU may prefer weirdly more conservative dress rules, but they aren't even dominant in the youth categories any more, and the center of mass for junior and juvenile competition is now in California and the Northeast, even if it was ever in Utah, so I don't think Utah should be the tail wagging the dog any more.

Well, BYU is a Mormon/LDS university. Their religion has specific, stricter (to many of us) standards concerning which body parts and how much of them can be exposed, particularly for women. I grew up with a cadre of LDS friends, and one of my bridesmaids was LDS, so she had to be mindful that the dress was modest enough (for lack of a better term) and properly covered the undergarments. Same with prom and other formal dresses. I occasionally see "BYU compliant" dresses come through on ballroom dress resale groups. Point being, I wouldn't classify it as "weird", even if I don't personally share the standard.

But maybe there just needs to be a global refresher so everyone is on the same page with regards to what dresses (etc) are permitted for youth competitors.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Don't make me pull teeth here, what styling is this? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm not a Latin person, but the one I remember from what was demonstrated second or third hand to me involved a hop slightly backward on both feet to a position where the legs are basically vertical and the body tilts forward from the hips, basically sticking one's butt out. I assume the problem with this was not that it unduly showed off one's number in solo stars.

There was at least one other styling that was apparently invigilated against which I don't remember at all.

I don't know much about the specifics of the children's competitions. Is there a perception that dressing in junior dress is advantageous compared to juvenile dress, i.e. it makes the girl look more mature and hence gives her (and the couple) an edge with the judges? I'm curious about the shoes too, do a lot of junior girls wear really high heels (I've seen the low heel/frilly socks combo that I assume is juvenile)?

With respect to the dress, we're talking about full competition costume allowed for juniors versus unadorned dress for juveniles. I would assume competition costume is perceived to be advantageous, since adult amateurs and pros pay thousands of dollars to wear it. Also see the post upthread from a parent in England who was surprised about the restriction in the US.

With respect to the shoes, juvenile shoes have block heels while junior shoes are the same as adult shoes, with adult style high heels. As far as I can tell, nearly all junior girls wear the actual high heels; the exceptions would be girls that haven't yet found heels that they find comfortable and are still wearing shoes left over from their juvenile days. If you see a girl dancing in a junior competition with the block heeled shoes and frilly white sock combination - the socks are also required for juveniles but not juniors - there's a good chance she's dancing up from juvenile. This is likely how the juvenile partner dancing in junior in September, that I think I discussed upthread, was identified as juvenile and thus invigilated against for full competition makeup.

I know I already replied to this, but one other note on this... there is no point to eyeliner if you are not also wearing mascara. I figured this out the hard way after seeing pictures of myself demonstrating that point, before I added mascara to the repertoire. And lipstick is probably the other big one here, blush you can kind of take or leave.

My 14 year old uses eyeliner without mascara to good effect, so it can be done. I know it's to good effect because my wife has been stealing 14 year old's eyeliner techniques.

Agreed regarding lipstick - my oversight there.

Well, BYU is a Mormon/LDS university. Their religion has specific, stricter (to many of us) standards concerning which body parts and how much of them can be exposed, particularly for women. I grew up with a cadre of LDS friends, and one of my bridesmaids was LDS, so she had to be mindful that the dress was modest enough (for lack of a better term) and properly covered the undergarments. Same with prom and other formal dresses. I occasionally see "BYU compliant" dresses come through on ballroom dress resale groups. Point being, I wouldn't classify it as "weird", even if I don't personally share the standard.

It wasn't just me personally; this was the general opinion of the collegiate/adult crowd in the northeast when I was in it, because most competition dress is not "BYU compliant" due to exposed backs. I had an LDS partner for a while and it may have been her opinion too; she always took pains to mention that various rules were "recommendations" of the church rather than "requirements" of it, with the implication it was okay to break them. I understand the apparent "okay to break them" opinion made her a bit of an outlier when she eventually went back to college at BYU.

But yes, the NDCA dress rules appear to show a lot of deference to the concept of "BYU compliant", even if they don't try to impose that on adults (except maybe at nationals?).

But maybe there just needs to be a global refresher so everyone is on the same page with regards to what dresses (etc) are permitted for youth competitors.

A global refresh might be too much for one set of updates, assuming you're using "youth" to mean "under 21, youth, junior, juvenile, and teddy bear".

 

[Cerinthe]

I'm not a Latin person, but the one I remember from what was demonstrated second or third hand to me involved a hop slightly backward on both feet to a position where the legs are basically vertical and the body tilts forward from the hips, basically sticking one's butt out. I assume the problem with this was not that it unduly showed off one's number in solo stars.

Isn’t there often a skirt flip that accompanies this? Yeah, I don’t love that look on kids.

My six-year-old is starting ballroom in addition to ballet (I feel partner dancing will have much more longevity so I hope she chooses to switch) but I really wrestle with the self-objectification girls already wrestle with that will be further encouraged by the makeup & attire.

 

[IndyLady]

I'm not a Latin person, but the one I remember from what was demonstrated second or third hand to me involved a hop slightly backward on both feet to a position where the legs are basically vertical and the body tilts forward from the hips, basically sticking one's butt out. I assume the problem with this was not that it unduly showed off one's number in solo stars.

Ah, the trusty check and pop (the name my franchise studio gave it, I can't remember the proper name). I'm actually working on the finer points of that in my cha cha routine, have not yet mastered.

Isn’t there often a skirt flip that accompanies this? Yeah, I don’t love that look on kids.

My six-year-old is starting ballroom in addition to ballet (I feel partner dancing will have much more longevity so I hope she chooses to switch) but I really wrestle with the self-objectification girls already wrestle with that will be further encouraged by the makeup & attire.

I hear you on this. The first time I saw kids dancing Latin at a comp, with all the affectations.... I'm still not entirely comfortable watching that.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Interestingly, while the girls in ballroom are a cross section of society, a majority of the boys in this area are Asian, so I think there's a difference in cultural acceptance of physical activities other than ball games.

While I've focused on team sports earlier in this thread, there's also competition between ballroom and artistic individual and couples sports. In Boston, for example, there is a significant amount of overlap between ballroom on the one hand, and figure skating and ice dancing on the other, as well as some overlap with gymnastics. To a significant extent, I think it's considered more socially acceptable to maintain a competitive level of instruction and practice - say, averaging a couple hours a day for schoolkids - in skating or gymnastics than in ballroom.

This doesn't work entirely to the detriment of ballroom, though. Ice dance coaches in the area often recommend some ballroom instruction, and sometimes the kids are more interested in ballroom once they try it.

I will say this: the skating kids and their parents bring a certain level of intensity that the ballroom kids don't always have. Ballroom girls often have parents who are just humoring their kids' interests - who just want their kids to be happy - and don't particularly have realistic competitive aspirations. The skating kids and their parents always have some level of interest in competitive results, preferably national if not beyond, and are realistic about the level of dedication needed to have a chance at such results.

For example, 12 year old is currently partnered with a skating girl, and she rarely misses a practice out of their three night a week practice schedule, which is really nice. Of course, it also helps that she seems to like dancing with him, and not just dancing by herself or itself; she sometimes even refrains from excessive roughhousing to avoid "damaging her partner".

Regarding the competitiveness of US kids internationally, it might be worth encouraging kids' competitive aspirations and habits. I'm not entirely sure how to do that in general, but one thing that would help me would be more detailed competition schedules, so I could tell better whether it might be worth while to stick around to watch the junior or youth championships or their results.

 

[raindance]

Skating requires a lot more discomfort than ballroom - cold ice, plenty of falls when just learning to move forward and backwards, uncomfortable skates, etc. No kid sticks with skating if they don't like it quite a bit, unless their parents really force it. And forcing it usually only works to get kids through a relatively short rough period in their skating. Kids really have to like skating to put up with all the discomforts that come with it.

Compare that to ballroom, with a reasonably climate controlled studio, and every single kid can walk forwards and backwards across the room without falling on the first try (not with good ballroom technique, but without any falls!), etc.

So yeah, skating kids and their parents, especially competitive ones, are probably a bit more committed and maybe intense than the average ballroom kids and parents.

 

[IndyLady]

Ballroom competition is rather a mess compared to ice skating and gymnastics, where it seems like their system is pretty clear once you get inside of it. Everybody know what the important comps are, how you need to get there, what the categories are, and who the winners are. Ice skating national championships were on TV this past weekend, all the athletes know that's where you want to be and then to the Olympics. If I asked an ice skating mom to explain the process to me, I'm sure she would have no problem giving me the rundown.

Ballroom on the other hand... how many of us are tripping all over ourselves trying to explain how the competitions work and all of the associated quirks, where we can't even really establish a consistent standard for what it takes to win, and what "world champion" really means. And that trickles down to children's ballroom too. My impression is that the children's ballroom comp world is a bit clique-y with a bunch of known players and lots of "2nd generation" type competitors, so it's even harder for those not already on the inside to break into. Add that it absolutely requires a partner (whereas gymnastics and ice skating can remain individual), and well, we've got our work cut out for us if we want parents to consider this instead of the other artistic sports where there's a clear path.

That said, it could evolve and I think there is hope for that, but right now it's a bit of a strange "own little world" that makes it hard to attract new participants, in terms of kids (and their parents).

And I say that as a parent who has her kid in a ballroom dance class.