Children's ballroom dancing in the US

Skating requires a lot more discomfort than ballroom - cold ice, plenty of falls when just learning to move forward and backwards, uncomfortable skates, etc. No kid sticks with skating if they don't like it quite a bit, unless their parents really force it.

Shouldn't this just reduce the number of undedicated kids? I don't see that it would make kids/parents more dedicated than they would be in ballroom.

Ballroom competition is rather a mess compared to ice skating and gymnastics, where it seems like their system is pretty clear once you get inside of it. Everybody know what the important comps are, how you need to get there, what the categories are, and who the winners are. Ice skating national championships were on TV this past weekend, all the athletes know that's where you want to be and then to the Olympics. If I asked an ice skating mom to explain the process to me, I'm sure she would have no problem giving me the rundown.

Except for the federation split, Ballroom isn't much more complex. The USA Dance route is just like skating and gymnastics: regionals to qualify for nationals; nationals to qualify for worlds. The WDC route is in some ways even simpler: pick the title you want to compete for - nationals, worlds, Blackpool, or whatever - and go to that competition. There's a bit of complexity regarding professionals and amateurs, but that's somewhat a consequence of the federation split.

Even explaining the federation split wasn't so terrible; skating also has things like politics and stylistic preferences too.

Ballroom on the other hand... how many of us are tripping all over ourselves trying to explain how the competitions work and all of the associated quirks, where we can't even really establish a consistent standard for what it takes to win, and what "world champion" really means.

For figure skating, there's the consistent objective standard of how many times you can spin in a jump, yes - though there can also be year to year quirks like whether there are extra points for putting all your jumps in the second half of your routine. For ice dancing, it's not clear to me that the standard is really any more consistent or objective than ballroom.

And that trickles down to children's ballroom too. My impression is that the children's ballroom comp world is a bit clique-y with a bunch of known players and lots of "2nd generation" type competitors, so it's even harder for those not already on the inside to break into. Add that it absolutely requires a partner (whereas gymnastics and ice skating can remain individual), and well, we've got our work cut out for us if we want parents to consider this instead of the other artistic sports where there's a clear path.

When I explained any of these idiosyncracies to 12 year old's partner's mom, the usual response was, "oh, it works the same way in ice dancing!" If anything, it was just that the idiosyncracies were more extreme in ice dancing, like the boy who asked the best available girl to be his partner, on the condition that she practice two hours a day with him, switch to his coach, and give up all her other extracurricular activities, including figure skating. I wouldn't dare try to get away with that with my boys, though in some more competitive countries, boys do demand some concessions.
 
What do you parents think of mixed proficiency (teens with little kids) when there is a lack of partner options? I felt like part of the benefit of this as a hobby for a child would be learning the skills needed to work in a partnership. Still there a bit I’m sure, but maybe less?
 
What do you parents think of mixed proficiency (teens with little kids) when there is a lack of partner options? I felt like part of the benefit of this as a hobby for a child would be learning the skills needed to work in a partnership. Still there a bit I’m sure, but maybe less?

Because of the size differential between teens, who are basically thin adults, and little kids, who are little, this kind of mixed proficiency tends to end up working just like children's pro-am assuming the teen is the higher proficiency. (I have no idea how this would work if the little kid were the higher proficiency, although the thought is amusing.)

For newcomers and maybe lower level Latin, it can work, if the hold is a fingertip to fingertip hold instead of trying for a "real" hold. Once the kid gets beyond complete beginner, this is no longer the best solution.

In Standard, it works less well, because the adult size partner's natural body contact point is considerably off from the kid's ideal contact point. Often it develops bad habits as the kid starts sticking his or her behind out to avoid collisions with the adult's thighs. Not ideal for partnering.

I do know one instructor who is able to adjust her contact point to the ideal height for the boy, and that works fine for the boy. I'm not sure if this can work as well for an adult male instructor with a girl student, or even in the general case for female instructors. I also know one local pro who is a good height match for typical juniors - though not juveniles - which she uses to her advantage when teaching.

An adult male instructor can develop good Standard movement in a girl student by foregoing body contact and leading through the frame. The instructor has to make major adjustments to how he leads, because it needs to be correct for the girl, not for him, but I've seen at least one male instructor who was able to do this. However, while this can develop the girl's skills in terms of body flight, movement quality, and knowledge of the material, it is not as good for partnering skills; the girl develops very specific and slightly idiosyncratic patterns of movement, and is going to expect the boy to adjust to her when she gets a partner who is matched in height or age, rather than doing her part in the adjustment. If the boy she ultimately ends up with has a strong Eggleton philosophy for lead and follow - "first you lead the lady, then you follow what she does" - this can work, but this isn't the only lead and follow philosophy that is taught. It also requires a boy who has sufficiently good body flight and movement quality to match the girl.

What I think works better is to use mixed proficiency to match up little kids who are about the right size for each other, but at different proficiency levels. Since it's usually girls who are in excess, this means finding a more proficient boy who is still little. The owner of one of the local kids' studios has two sons; this has worked well for her though the boys are now getting too tall to dance comfortably with little kids.

13 year old partnered a girl in this situation about a year ago - he was 12 then, and to be honest, he's still little kid sized. In the studio group picture, some of the couples are smiling and some are not, presumably based on how well they did in the competition. The girl 13 year old partnered is absolutely beaming like the cat who got the canary! So presumably it was a good experience for her.

That said, she hasn't asked to do it again, or at least the studio hasn't arranged for it again. In this case, I think the studio was hoping that 13 year old would take this girl as his regular partner, despite the proficiency difference, and possibly that might have been what the girl thought was happening. So I'd say studios and coaches need to make clear what the situation is with mixed proficiency competitions to avoid raising unrealistic expectations.

Of course, honesty on the part of the coach won't necessarily guarantee a good result, either. There's another situation at another of the kids' studios that I've heard about through gossip from various parents, siblings, and random preteens. From my perspective, this started when the girl who had recently dumped 10 year old as a partner was seen taking a lesson from an eligible boy of the right age and height for her. While I obviously wasn't favorably disposed to this girl, I could look at the lesson objectively, and to me they looked like a good match. In my opinion, she was slightly better than he was, but that's to be expected in a random kids' partnership.

It turned out that the boy's family thought he was helping out a potential mixed amateur competitor that they thought was not nearly as good as he was, perhaps because he was learning gold material and she only knew bronze material. The coach in this case was completely honest: she was looking at it as a good potential primary partnership. So there was potential for miscommunication there that got headed off. However, there's no established partnership yet and as far as I know they have not competed mixed amateur.

Now, this boy does apparently have other choices. There is another girl who in my opinion is slightly better than 10 year old's former partner but is a slightly worse physical match for this boy, who is apparently hoping for a partnership with the same boy and considers 10 year old's former partner to be her primary rival. She might have considered 10 year old to be her "safety partner", as we'd previously inquired with the studio as to her availability, and she expressed surprise that 10 year old had taken on a beginner as his partner. But hey, nobody ever responded to our inquiry, so we went with who we knew to be available, though to be fair the lack of response was probably more the studio's or her parents' fault than hers.

The studio 10 year old did find his new partner at has a coach with a harshly realistic policy: she has flat out stated to the students at her studio that "the best girls will be matched up with the boys for partners, best with the best and so on down the line." This might be why all of the boys at her studio have partners, though there's a question regarding why the bottom two thirds of the girls stick around - although I guess the studio does also have pro-am available. This is the same coach who has said, regarding practice, "it's not enough to be in the studio practicing every day, you also need to stay for rounds." Perhaps unsurprisingly, her couples tend to do well. While 10 year old was looking for a partner, she told us to tell her every time we came in whether and what tryouts the studio owner had arranged, since he was the one with the contact information for the girls' families. So that may be a reason why 10 year old ended up finding his partner there rather than another studio.

There might be some lessons here about forming kids' partnerships. Boys shouldn't get hung up on syllabus levels; one can get carried to a higher proficiency level than one's technique justifies by amateur, mixed amateur, or pro-am partners. Girls may have to accept that having a partner at all is a good thing, and while one might get lucky with a partner who is as good as or better than the girl is, it can't be expected. And coaches, perhaps, should be proactive about forming partnerships promptly - we've been lucky to have a couple of coaches who have done this.

Anyway, sorry about the prolonged tangent. I think mixed proficiency amateur can work, but I think it works better with partners of sufficiently matched size that if proficiency wasn't an issue, they could be regular partners. That's still quite a broad range, just not broad enough to accommodate the average high schooler dancing with the average grade schooler.
 
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Because of the size differential between teens, who are basically thin adults, and little kids, who are little, this kind of mixed proficiency tends to end up working just like children's pro-am assuming the teen is the higher proficiency. (I have no idea how this would work if the little kid were the higher proficiency, although the thought is amusing.)

For newcomers and maybe lower level Latin, it can work, if the hold is a fingertip to fingertip hold instead of trying for a "real" hold. Once the kid gets beyond complete beginner, this is no longer the best solution.

In Standard, it works less well, because the adult size partner's natural body contact point is considerably off from the kid's ideal contact point. Often it develops bad habits as the kid starts sticking his or her behind out to avoid collisions with the adult's thighs. Not ideal for partnering.

I do know one instructor who is able to adjust her contact point to the ideal height for the boy, and that works fine for the boy. I'm not sure if this can work as well for an adult male instructor with a girl student, or even in the general case for female instructors. I also know one local pro who is a good height match for typical juniors - though not juveniles - which she uses to her advantage when teaching.

An adult male instructor can develop good Standard movement in a girl student by foregoing body contact and leading through the frame. The instructor has to make major adjustments to how he leads, because it needs to be correct for the girl, not for him, but I've seen at least one male instructor who was able to do this. However, while this can develop the girl's skills in terms of body flight, movement quality, and knowledge of the material, it is not as good for partnering skills; the girl develops very specific and slightly idiosyncratic patterns of movement, and is going to expect the boy to adjust to her when she gets a partner who is matched in height or age, rather than doing her part in the adjustment. If the boy she ultimately ends up with has a strong Eggleton philosophy for lead and follow - "first you lead the lady, then you follow what she does" - this can work, but this isn't the only lead and follow philosophy that is taught. It also requires a boy who has sufficiently good body flight and movement quality to match the girl.

What I think works better is to use mixed proficiency to match up little kids who are about the right size for each other, but at different proficiency levels. Since it's usually girls who are in excess, this means finding a more proficient boy who is still little. The owner of one of the local kids' studios has two sons; this has worked well for her though the boys are now getting too tall to dance comfortably with little kids.

13 year old partnered a girl in this situation about a year ago - he was 12 then, and to be honest, he's still little kid sized. In the studio group picture, some of the couples are smiling and some are not, presumably based on how well they did in the competition. The girl 13 year old partnered is absolutely beaming like the cat who got the canary! So presumably it was a good experience for her.

That said, she hasn't asked to do it again, or at least the studio hasn't arranged for it again. In this case, I think the studio was hoping that 13 year old would take this girl as his regular partner, despite the proficiency difference, and possibly that might have been what the girl thought was happening. So I'd say studios and coaches need to make clear what the situation is with mixed proficiency competitions to avoid raising unrealistic expectations.

Of course, honesty on the part of the coach won't necessarily guarantee a good result, either. There's another situation at another of the kids' studios that I've heard about through gossip from various parents, siblings, and random preteens. From my perspective, this started when the girl who had recently dumped 10 year old as a partner was seen taking a lesson from an eligible boy of the right age and height for her. While I obviously wasn't favorably disposed to this girl, I could look at the lesson objectively, and to me they looked like a good match. In my opinion, she was slightly better than he was, but that's to be expected in a random kids' partnership.

It turned out that the boy's family thought he was helping out a potential mixed amateur competitor that they thought was not nearly as good as he was, perhaps because he was learning gold material and she only knew bronze material. The coach in this case was completely honest: she was looking at it as a good potential primary partnership. So there was potential for miscommunication there that got headed off. However, there's no established partnership yet and as far as I know they have not competed mixed amateur.

Now, this boy does apparently have other choices. There is another girl who in my opinion is slightly better than 10 year old's former partner but is a slightly worse physical match for this boy, who is apparently hoping for a partnership with the same boy and considers 10 year old's former partner to be her primary rival. She might have considered 10 year old to be her "safety partner", as we'd previously inquired with the studio as to her availability, and she expressed surprise that 10 year old had taken on a beginner as his partner. But hey, nobody ever responded to our inquiry, so we went with who we knew to be available, though to be fair the lack of response was probably more the studio's or her parents' fault than hers.

The studio 10 year old did find his new partner at has a coach with a harshly realistic policy: she has flat out stated to the students at her studio that "the best girls will be matched up with the boys for partners, best with the best and so on down the line." This might be why all of the boys at her studio have partners, though there's a question regarding why the bottom two thirds of the girls stick around - although I guess the studio does also have pro-am available. This is the same coach who has said, regarding practice, "it's not enough to be in the studio practicing every day, you also need to stay for rounds." Perhaps unsurprisingly, her couples tend to do well. While 10 year old was looking for a partner, she told us to tell her every time we came in whether and what tryouts the studio owner had arranged, since he was the one with the contact information for the girls' families. So that may be a reason why 10 year old ended up finding his partner there rather than another studio.

There might be some lessons here about forming kids' partnerships. Boys shouldn't get hung up on syllabus levels; one can get carried to a higher proficiency level than one's technique justifies by amateur, mixed amateur, or pro-am partners. Girls may have to accept that having a partner at all is a good thing, and while one might get lucky with a partner who is as good as or better than the girl is, it can't be expected. And coaches, perhaps, should be proactive about forming partnerships promptly - we've been lucky to have a couple of coaches who have done this.

Anyway, sorry about the prolonged tangent. I think mixed proficiency amateur can work, but I think it works better with partners of sufficiently matched size that if proficiency wasn't an issue, they could be regular partners. That's still quite a broad range, just not broad enough to accommodate the average high schooler dancing with the average grade schooler.
No apology necessary! That was an interesting read with lots of thoughts to consider. I very much appreciated it. I’d like to talk more but of course ages and descriptions would be indentifying information… Would you mind if I messaged you?
 
From another less relevant thread:
I don't perceive hostility to people discussing children's dancing. I just think none of us are children and few have kids dancing.
There was a pretty censorious attitude toward a parent who got a kid up for 6am sports practices, even from people who wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a 6am hair appointment for themselves. But maybe you’re open minded enough not to have perceived any hint of hostility or judgement in the old Proamitis thread; I don’t know.

Regarding this thread, one of the reasons the US is less competitive in kids’ dancing is because of attitudes like that: if the attitude is that it’s borderline mistreatment for parents to get their kids up at zero dark thirty to practice, those kids aren’t going to beat the kids from countries where that’s standard operating procedure.
 
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So while I know Pro-Am brings a lot of money to Ballroom dancing in the United states, it is not proportionately distributed toward developing couples or children.

It's a hobby for wealthy people, many of whom take it very seriously like tennis. In the USA it is not something where we're trying to work together to produce the best couples in the World. Rather, it's a business built around hobbyists. And by using the word hobby, I don't want a lesson how serious people are about dancing. They compete fiercely in pro-am.
I see the problem with pro-am (and mixed amateur) a bit differently. I don’t see an effective way to transfer money, but I also think it’s a bigger problem when it acts as an alternative to amateur partnership for kids, causing a similar effect to proamitis. No, the 30 year old that is teaching your daughter is not your 9 year old’s “partner”, even if that is the spiel that sold you the lessons, and taking pro-am lessons with him is not a route to doing well internationally or even nationally.

I don’t see a problem with helping retirees enjoy their retirement by selling them pro-am lessons, but I’m not so sure about applying that sales model to kids.
 
From another less relevant thread:

There was a pretty censorious attitude toward a parent who got a kid up for 6am sports practices, even from people who wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a 6am hair appointment for themselves. But maybe you’re open minded enough not to have perceived any hint of hostility or judgement in the old Proamitis thread; I don’t know.
I don't perceive anything about the comment in question because I haven't seen it. You'd have to link the specific comment for me to see it.
 
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I see the problem with pro-am (and mixed amateur) a bit differently. I don’t see an effective way to transfer money, but I also think it’s a bigger problem when it acts as an alternative to amateur partnership for kids, causing a similar effect to proamitis. No, the 30 year old that is teaching your daughter is not your 9 year old’s “partner”, even if that is the spiel that sold you the lessons, and taking pro-am lessons with him is not a route to doing well internationally or even nationally.

I don’t see a problem with helping retirees enjoy their retirement by selling them pro-am lessons, but I’m not so sure about applying that sales model to kids.
Speaking of “not something where we're trying to work together to produce the best couples in the World”, the current trend towards Solo Stars competition doesn’t help either, as it provides no incentive to learn lead-follow skills needed to operate as a “couple”.

This was brought home recently when I took the boys to a studio where these skills are valued more. In group classes, partners were rotated so all the kids had a chance to dance with a partner at least some of the time. As a result of this philosophy, all the girls had reasonable following skills, which is not the case of girls whose only experience has been with Solo Stars and classes geared toward preparing for Solo Stars.

Yeah, I know, finding a partner is way more difficult for girls than for boys. But it can be discouraging for boys too when half the girls would rather dance alone than with a boy. Better to find easier ways for both sexes to find suitable partners.
 
Fiesta mentions in another thread net migration from ballroom to other forms of dance like ballet. I don’t really understand why this occurs, but I’ve been seeing evidence of a few cases recently. One could imagine girls getting frustrated with the lack of partners in ballroom, except I’ve been seeing this in the context of partner searches for my boys, where girls who are leaving ballroom for ballet decline to return for a partner.

It would be interesting to examine why there’s little migration in the other direction - from ballet to ballroom. However, my immediate observation is about dedication. The typical early to mid teens ballet student spends 3 hours a day, 4-6 days a week, on ballet.

Ballroom kids’ parents don’t generally see 15 hours a week as a reasonable time investment, unless maybe you include commute time. Why? Is this just another case of ballroom not being seen as “real” or respectable activity?
 
I haven't priced it out, but I would guess the emphasis on group instruction in ballet (and jazz, tap, hip hop, etc) vs. private instruction in ballroom means it's likely ballet is a lot less expensive to pursue.

And the group instruction might also be more appealing to kids (and possibly their parents) than the kid working with mostly just one other kid, typically of the opposite sex.

I do think top ballerinas have more prestige than top ballroom dancers as well in the general public. But that's just an impression.
 
Fiesta mentions in another thread net migration from ballroom to other forms of dance like ballet. I don’t really understand why this occurs, but I’ve been seeing evidence of a few cases recently. One could imagine girls getting frustrated with the lack of partners in ballroom, except I’ve been seeing this in the context of partner searches for my boys, where girls who are leaving ballroom for ballet decline to return for a partner...

Ballroom kids’ parents don’t generally see 15 hours a week as a reasonable time investment, unless maybe you include commute time. Why? Is this just another case of ballroom not being seen as “real” or respectable activity?

While neither of these dance disciplines are ones in which I have had much experience, I would speculate that the reasons are more practical.

It appears to be greater odds to have a ballet career than a ballroom career in the US. There are more ballet companies and opportunities to dance as a ballerina (plus a clear career path that is 100% self-reliant - like pre-professional, corps, soloist, and principal).

I know of 2 former professional ballerinas, and 1 pre-professional level student, who for their own reasons left ballet and are training in ballroom now. However, they seem to be drawn to Pro/Am with only 1 of them going Am/Am. I can only imagine that they are also challenged to find a great match for partnership too.
 

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