Children's ballroom dancing in the US

[opendoor]

..I know of 2 former professional ballerinas.. who.. left ballet and are training in ballroom now.. I can only imagine that they are also challenged to find a great match for partnership too.

Well, you know I found refuge in Argentine tango. And my most important influence and long-time coach was the former prima ballerina of the famous John Neumeier Company, a native Argentinian. And no, we didn't become a couple after all. She left the company simply to survive physically: comminuted fractures and cortisone are standard practice at the top level up there.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

While neither of these dance disciplines are ones in which I have had much experience, I would speculate that the reasons are more practical.

It appears to be greater odds to have a ballet career than a ballroom career in the US. There are more ballet companies and opportunities to dance as a ballerina (plus a clear career path that is 100% self-reliant - like pre-professional, corps, soloist, and principal).

I’m not sure about the odds - I know of a few professional ballroom dancers who came out of the collegiate system, for example - but I agree the ballet career paths are better defined. Not better, mind - just better defined, at least until you get into the politics of getting parts and such.

On the other hand, pretty sure ballroom positions pay better, on average. But yeah, kids’ ballroom is generally seen as an enrichment activity, not a potential career path, even by the kids.

I know of 2 former professional ballerinas, and 1 pre-professional level student, who for their own reasons left ballet and are training in ballroom now. However, they seem to be drawn to Pro/Am with only 1 of them going Am/Am. I can only imagine that they are also challenged to find a great match for partnership too.

 

[Brummbaer]

I know of 2 former professional ballerinas, and 1 pre-professional level student, who for their own reasons left ballet and are training in ballroom now.

And from ballet to the Argentine Tango world: Stefanía Colina & Juan Martín Carrara.

I guess there are other interests, or a career opportunity when younger. I know of one young male ice dancer who gave up, after winning several competitions, to train as a doctor. And one young medical researcher who took time out to dance AT, but then returned to research. Of course, there has to be a market in a country which supports such 'culture' to pay the bills. Or maybe you have to think of career lifetime and rewards if you stay in dance.

BTW - Juan Martin Carrara does superb enrosques! And other moves. Both are also great teachers.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

It is super easy for a dancer who spends most of their time in the competitive scene, looking up the ladder at the Gold and Open and Pro dancers, to forget that Silver dancers are really good, in the grand scheme of things.

Kind of like ballet students looking up the ladder at the professionals, soloists, and principals. Except, the general public knows about this ladder for ballet, and the ballet community knows how much work people have put in even before doing prepointe. We need that kind of recognition for ballroom.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I haven't priced it out, but I would guess the emphasis on group instruction in ballet (and jazz, tap, hip hop, etc) vs. private instruction in ballroom means it's likely ballet is a lot less expensive to pursue.

Kids’ ballroom is also heavily dominated by group classes for exactly this reason, at least at studios that have strong kids’ programs.

And the group instruction might also be more appealing to kids (and possibly their parents) than the kid working with mostly just one other kid, typically of the opposite sex.

Depends very much on the kids’ ages.

I do think top ballerinas have more prestige than top ballroom dancers as well in the general public. But that's just an impression.

Ballet somehow manages to brainwash students that ballet is the only real form of dance. And it seems like in the US, most women have taken at least a little ballet at some point in their lives, so the general public is brainwashed. This does not seem to be the case in Europe.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

On the other hand, pretty sure ballroom positions pay better, on average. But yeah, kids’ ballroom is generally seen as an enrichment activity, not a potential career path, even by the kids.

I have to kind of take this back. I know a couple of high school girls who are trying to become instructors in the kids’ studio they have taken classes at for years. This studio is likely to have a succession event within the next five to ten years, so this might be a good time.

My wife and I are the kind of old fashioned parents that think it is good for kids to take part time jobs in high school. We’re thinking that amateur teaching might be a possibility for the boys. They’re not thrilled, but I think it’s the “job” part they aren’t thrilled at.

Our Standard coach teaches 50 lessons on a busy week at a little over $100 per lesson, and has students she can’t accommodate. Even as a gross for a subchapter S business, that’s better than many professional jobs. Granted she’s especially good with kids.

Many parents might still prefer their kids become doctors or lawyers, but I’m not sure ballroom teacher makes so little economic sense even in the US any more.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Most of the pro-am instructors are of Eastern European descent, too, and pro-am ballroom doesn't seem to be hurting because of it. With respect to the parents, I do agree more Eastern European parents seem to be guide their kids into ballroom as opposed to, say, soccer, but …

I want to point out one issue that may be related to this.

There is significant ethnic discrimination with regard to partnership opportunities against kids and parents of non soviet extraction (except possibly Chinese). If you don’t speak Russian, the Russian speaking ethnic Soviet parents (mostly Russian and Ukrainian) are going to guide their daughters (and presumably sons) away from you. The coaches may too.

Probably at least half the ballroom kids in the metro are Russian speaking, but the ones willing to partner my kids always seem to be of Western European or Hispanic extraction.

 

[raindance]

Our Standard coach teaches 50 lessons on a busy week at a little over $100 per lesson, and has students she can’t accommodate. Even as a gross for a subchapter S business, that’s better than many professional jobs. Granted she’s especially good with kids.

Just curious, how many busy weeks a year does she have on average?

I think in general it's pretty unusual for a teacher to be booked for 50 lessons in any week, let alone week after week. Scheduling can be difficult, since many students have to work around school (kids) and/or work (parents who drive the kids) schedules. There are only so many afternoon/evening and weekend hours, and only so late into the evening that kids will book lessons. Curious how she manages to juggle so many lessons into a week. Maybe a lot of the kids are home schooled and on flexible schedules? How long are these lessons? An hour? 40 minutes with a 5 minute break before the next one? etc.

And then, how many hours a week is she in the studio when not fully booked? If there are gaps in the schedule she might be there at the studio almost as long on a quiet week as a busy one.

She also has expenses to pay out of the per lesson fees - either floor fees, or the expenses of running a studio.

Not saying it's impossible to make a good living as a teacher. But $5000 weeks are probably outliers for teachers in general, even if it's routine for her. Not really trying to argue, just curious how she makes that work.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Just curious, how many busy weeks a year does she have on average?

At the time we discussed this, probably most weeks. Now, maybe less, because she doesn’t seem to try as hard to stay fully booked.

I think in general it's pretty unusual for a teacher to be booked for 50 lessons in any week, let alone week after week. Scheduling can be difficult, since many students have to work around school (kids) and/or work (parents who drive the kids) schedules. There are only so many afternoon/evening and weekend hours, and only so late into the evening that kids will book lessons.

I agree it’s unusual. Some teachers are lucky to get half as many hours. They still take home more than the average ballet dancer.

Curious how she manages to juggle so many lessons into a week. Maybe a lot of the kids are home schooled and on flexible schedules? How long are these lessons? An hour? 40 minutes with a 5 minute break before the next one? etc.

45 minutes. Some kids will come in early. She works some weekend days.

And then, how many hours a week is she in the studio when not fully booked? If there are gaps in the schedule she might be there at the studio almost as long on a quiet week as a busy one.

She has switched the primary studio she teaches in to one closer to her home, so she doesn’t tend to spend idle hours at the studio.

She also has expenses to pay out of the per lesson fees - either floor fees, or the expenses of running a studio.

Yes, floor fees are significant.

Not saying it's impossible to make a good living as a teacher. But $5000 weeks are probably outliers for teachers in general, even if it's routine for her. Not really trying to argue, just curious how she makes that work.

She makes it work by working really hard, being naturally inspiring to her students (especially the girls), and generally being attentive to the needs of her customers - understanding and accommodating their situations. I’m sure having a U.S. amateur title doesn’t hurt. And, of course, others can see how good her students are.

Is she the exception, rather than the rule? Absolutely. She’s an example of what really good ballroom teachers with terrific people skills can make - not an example of what an average ballroom teacher can make. But I’m betting she does better than most ballet soloists, and maybe principals too.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Yes, floor fees are significant.

For the benefit of those who haven’t owned a subchapter S corporation, I note that there are plenty of expenses one ultimately pays out of corporate revenue that a normal employee doesn’t have to pay out of a take home salary. For example, when I was a sub S, the corporation paid a corporate state tax, and because I acted as a contractor to the corporation rather than a salaried employee, the sole proprietorship (contractor) layer paid for the employer half of social security tax as well as the employee half, health insurance, and usually the maximum retirement contribution (25% as I recall), as well as computer equipment used for the job. My S corp did not retain much in profits - I didn’t usually have any other employees, and when I did, I was not trying to make money off of them - so maybe 3/4 flowed through to the sole proprietorship, of which maybe half - less than half of the original gross - made it to my actual take home after personal income taxes and such. So the corporate gross should not be compared to personal income before or after taxes.

I have no idea what her corporate structure is - I don’t even know whether she’s a sub S or a direct sole proprietorship - so things may work differently for her, but her take home is inevitably only a fraction of her gross revenue. Still much more than the close to minimum wage a ballet dancer in the corps gets, though.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I think the data we have suggests that the biggest reason they are producing more successful kids is because because they are starting with more kids entering ballroom in the first place, due to fewer cultural prejudices against dance in favor of team sports. It's not an issue of their doing better with the kids they have; it's an issue of their having more kids in the first place.

With four years of additional data, my opinion on this has shifted. I no longer think they are starting with more kids. I think they are doing a better job of getting those kids partnered up.

For example, YouTube has shown me half a dozen channels that started out featuring a junior (sensu lato, that is, juvenile, junior, or youth) girl’s ballroom dancing. In every case, the girl has picked up a partner in six months or so, switching from posting solo videos to couples videos.

Watching backgrounds for other dancers, it’s not the case that all the girls get partners. Rather, girls that have their own YouTube channels are drawn from the top five or ten percent of the female dancers, and girls in this top five or ten percent get partners. So I think the way it must work is, when a boy enters the system, he instantly gets paired up with the top available height and age matched girl. (I never see unpaired boys in the backgrounds, like I do in, say, ballet class backgrounds or US rounds. And the boys that do get paired up are mediocre compared to the girls they get paired with.)

Meanwhile, there are plenty of junior girls in US classes as well, and few boys for the cultural reasons discussed upthread. But, even the boys which are available don’t get paired up.

Instead, at most studios when one of the girls shows enough seriousness to do more than group classes, amateur or professional instructors swoop in to take their (parents’) money for teacher-student or pro-am lessons. At studios where this does not happen, the girls typically claim not to want a partner, and the studio signs them up for solo stars instead, instead of convincing them to take on a partner.

Do I sound Frustrated? I am. If I spoke Ukrainian, I’d be ready to work out a deal with a Ukrainian studio to take my boys there for tryouts, and offer TPS visa sponsorship to the winning partners/parents.

What’s needed for the US is to figure out a business model that lets the pros and studios make as much money off junior couples as they do off pro-am.

 

[Cerinthe]

With four years of additional data, my opinion on this has shifted. I no longer think they are starting with more kids. I think they are doing a better job of getting those kids partnered up.

For example, YouTube has shown me half a dozen channels that started out featuring a junior (sensu lato, that is, juvenile, junior, or youth) girl’s ballroom dancing. In every case, the girl has picked up a partner in six months or so, switching from posting solo videos to couples videos.

Watching backgrounds for other dancers, it’s not the case that all the girls get partners. Rather, girls that have their own YouTube channels are drawn from the top five or ten percent of the female dancers, and girls in this top five or ten percent get partners. So I think the way it must work is, when a boy enters the system, he instantly gets paired up with the top available height and age matched girl. (I never see unpaired boys in the backgrounds, like I do in, say, ballet class backgrounds or US rounds. And the boys that do get paired up are mediocre compared to the girls they get paired with.)

Meanwhile, there are plenty of junior girls in US classes as well, and few boys for the cultural reasons discussed upthread. But, even the boys which are available don’t get paired up.

Instead, at most studios when one of the girls shows enough seriousness to do more than group classes, amateur or professional instructors swoop in to take their (parents’) money for teacher-student or pro-am lessons. At studios where this does not happen, the girls typically claim not to want a partner, and the studio signs them up for solo stars instead, instead of convincing them to take on a partner.

Do I sound Frustrated? I am. If I spoke Ukrainian, I’d be ready to work out a deal with a Ukrainian studio to take my boys there for tryouts, and offer TPS visa sponsorship to the winning partners/parents.

What’s needed for the US is to figure out a business model that lets the pros and studios make as much money off junior couples as they do off pro-am.

There are no boys to be paired up in my state. (Well, just one.) If anyone else has a partner, it’s because they are dancing with their sibling.

Ballroom is also dead for adults here, too, apart from a small collegiate group. When we go to competitions, we are uncontested or dancing against college students.

 

[Tracy]

If studios made as much off Jr couples as pro-am, it would then discourage the average income parents from doing ballroom with their kids and only upper income families could afford it. And then you have people that don't want their kids to go into dance for a living and only do it for recreational purposes. Its a catch 22.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

There are no boys to be paired up in my state. (Well, just one.) If anyone else has a partner, it’s because they are dancing with their sibling.

Ballroom is also dead for adults here, too, apart from a small collegiate group. When we go to competitions, we are uncontested or dancing against college students.

Yeah, I’m looking at the relatively population dense northeast. And I’m not saying all the girls get partners, here or in Europe - unfortunately, the best that can be done, in terms of maximizing the number of competing junior couples in the US, is at least to make sure all the boys get partners.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

If studios made as much off Jr couples as pro-am, it would then discourage the average income parents from doing ballroom with their kids and only upper income families could afford it.

Average income parents’ kids already do not do ballroom, and cannot afford to pay for pro-am for their kids either. However, there’s no evidence that’s any different in the countries that get more kids to a globally competitive level.