choreography vs. lead/follow in comps?

[fiesta0618]

I found another old post of mine (from April 2023) in the post comp disorder thread:

“…this is why my pro refuses to compete using choreographed routines in closed syllabus levels. He’s had too many bad experiences with students who (a) forgot their routine & didn’t know how to follow anything else; or (b) were too rigid in their memorization of the routine & couldn’t adjust on the fly when it was necessary. Under either scenario, the student freaks out & has a lousy comp experience.”​

From a performance perspective, this is the standout best reason, in my opinion.

Focusing on choreographed individual work might increase the quality ceiling of a performance, but the dancer's confidence is going to be a lot more fragile, so there is considerable risk of total implosion.

Confidence, on the other hand, makes the dancer a lot more reliable. Their absolute best may not be quite as good, but there is a much greater chance that they will produce that best.

 

[Happyhorsie]

I found another old post of mine (from April 2023) in the post comp disorder thread:

“…this is why my pro refuses to compete using choreographed routines in closed syllabus levels. He’s had too many bad experiences with students who (a) forgot their routine & didn’t know how to follow anything else; or (b) were too rigid in their memorization of the routine & couldn’t adjust on the fly when it was necessary. Under either scenario, the student freaks out & has a lousy comp experience.”​

Meanwhile, there’s me going like dang I was too focused on following I forgot to use my back leg/keep my head in the right place/do my hip action/do my arms properly, ugh!!!

 

[Pryn]

Meanwhile, there’s me going like dang I was too focused on following I forgot to use my back leg/keep my head in the right place/do my hip action/do my arms properly, ugh!!!

It's multitasking on a whole different level.

 

[vit]

If there are many things that are not settled down yet, question choreography or not is pretty much meaningless

 

[Pryn]

In any case, students at this level essentially never have a role in the process of building choreography. Their instructor will assign it to them. The usual considerations for that are analysis of which movements look good on the student, or which movements are instructive for them to study deeply at this time.

Well... I guess I'm not the normal Bronzie. All of my Pros ask me for suggestions on the figures I want to dance or learn for competition (as well as go over during regular lessons). I think they want to incorporate as many as I like performing to keep me a happy customer.

I usually ask them back 3 questions...
1. Which ones do I do well?
2. Which 1-2 do you think would get positive attention from the judges?
3. Pick 1 really challenging one for me - and make me learn it... ignore any pouting.

Occasionally, I'll request a favorite figure or two, or one that I'm struggling with. Or, beg to avoid a few from my active list of of "evil ones", but sometimes a few of those fall in questions #1-3 categories - and I'm stuck.

 

[fiesta0618]

Well... I guess I'm not the normal Bronzie. All of my Pros ask me for suggestions on the figures I want to dance or learn for competition (as well as go over during regular lessons). I think they want to incorporate as many as I like performing to keep me a happy customer.

You're definitely not a normal Bronzie, and I don't think your instructors indulge you just to keep you happy.

You have an extensive background as a dancer. That's actually quite uncommon in Ballroom. There are relatively few people who migrate from other styles into it (outside of those who habitually dabble in many things). Migrations usually go the other way, from what I can tell.

As a result, you have established experience & intuitions with movement & aesthetics. You both have an opinion, and it is an informed one.

********

With most of my Bronzies, it goes like this.

When we are doing a showdance, I want the students to play a meaningful role in designing the art to the greatest feasible extent. It is all about them, after all! So I first give them the option to choose a piece of music, which generally goes easily enough.

After that, when we're designing the choreography, I seek their input into how they would like it to work. For the least experienced, I will make this easier by giving a menu of two or four options for a particular moment, and ask which one appeals to them. In many cases, even that restricted level of contribution is daunting, and they will return with "I'm not sure, what do you think works best for me?"

To me, when that happens, it feels like I'm just building my own choreography for them, with extra steps that make them feel included. They aren't actually participating.

 

[opendoor]

..In any case, students at this level essentially never have a role.. building choreography. Their instructor will assign it to them..

Does that apply to International or to American? I ask because you've always praised the priority of musicality over technique in American BR.

 

[fiesta0618]

Does that apply to International or to American? I ask because you've always praised the priority of musicality over technique in American BR.

Both.

Musicality and choreography are distinct concerns. Matching movement to music has comparatively little to do with which pattern I choose; instead, it is a question of the manner in which I execute and dress up that pattern.

As an example, consider the fact that every single Ballroom dance, Standard and Smooth alike, includes Reverse Turn as an option. Nominally, by the book, they will all seem the same: you commence from the same leg, you make the same weight changes, and you do similar amounts of rotation. Despite that, the manner of execution for Reverse Turn in each dance is so clearly distinct that an observer can identify the dance just by watching it, even if the music is muted. This is an example of entry-level musicality.

In fact, I might challenge you with an overly provocative, too-strongly stated, and overgeneralized argument: associating musicality with step choice is an immature conceptualization. A true master of musicality can express any emotion they wish with any step that they choose. In that framing, confining oneself to a set choreo is not a strict limitation--merely an interesting musicality challenge. Like sticking to the meter requirements of a sonnet.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I think this thread is conflating several different situations. I read the original poster as being a pro-am male student, but most of the responses look at the situation from the standpoint of a male pro, female student perspective, with some looking at couples who are both students.

In my experience, pro-am male students often do have some degree of choreographic control, because good female instructors teach their students to lead the figures they are teaching them. These instructors usually follow well enough that it doesn’t matter all that much if the student uses a prechoreographed routine or not. Some students take the trouble to choreograph their own routine; others will either use a routine the teacher provides, or do lead and follow. For student leaders, a prechoreographed routine can reduce the task loading significantly, letting the student spend more cycles on other things, at the risk of more collisions.

This is different from the situation of a pro-am follower student. In this case, if she were to come up with the choreography, it would still be up to the pro to remember it and lead it. Choreography input along the lines of what Pryn describes makes more sense here.

 

[opendoor]

...challenge you with an overly provocative....A true master of musicality can express any emotion they wish with any step that they choose..

I completely agree with you on this. My first workshop many years ago with an international master covered exactly this topic. I had to perform a very short sequence of steps in at least 20 different ways, and also at different rhythms, moods and tempi. I've adopted that as my own agenda. It is the basic concept of musicality: to harmonize expression with music. No sequence is needed, any step will do. Better, no step is needed. I can do that even standing still on the spot (and I hope I'm not provoking you now with this). It works through breathing and subtle movements.

..Musicality and choreography are distinct concerns. Matching movement to music has comparatively little to do with which pattern I choose...

And here I must disagree. But perhaps it's a language issue again. However, I don't know if it's due to different ideas about choreography or music. A piece of music has parts: an intro, verse, call, response, a coda, a climax, the chorus, and the ritardando. You shouldn't just slap steps on top of that. The goal of the choreography is to make the story told with musical means also visually tangible. Even back in my Standard BR years, we always incorporated poses or non-metal steps in our choreos and exams.

 

[chachacha]

I found another old post of mine (from April 2023) in the post comp disorder thread:

“…this is why my pro refuses to compete using choreographed routines in closed syllabus levels. He’s had too many bad experiences with students who (a) forgot their routine & didn’t know how to follow anything else; or (b) were too rigid in their memorization of the routine & couldn’t adjust on the fly when it was necessary. Under either scenario, the student freaks out & has a lousy comp experience.”​

This is more or less what my instructor said, except we are male leads and she is a female pro follow.

Her rationale is she wants us to have a solid foundation in floorcraft and correcting mistakes so we don’t get lost if we run into someone or mess up.

She has one student whom she competes with anywhere from roughly 6-8 times per year. When they first started (before I came along), my understanding is they attempted choreographed routines and it did not go well, so mid comp they switched to lead/follow and stuck with it since.

I will add this is only for bronze, she would start introducing choreographed routines at silver.

Thank you all for the responses. Sorry for the delay in posting again, busy last few days. Lots of wonderful info in here

 

[joy]

ou have an extensive background as a dancer. That's actually quite uncommon in Ballroom.

Your sentence made me realize that most of my Pro's core students have a dance background (usually ballet) or a gymnastics background.

 

[vit]

Obviously there is a number of scenarios here, each requiring different approach. My 1st thought after reading original post was that it was about female teacher and several am-am couples ... but it turned out that wasn't the case

 

[neveragain]

Is it just me that experienced dancers from other styles stick out very well among bronzies but not silver and above? Except if someone just jumped into higher levels without enough BR foundations. Are all the non experienced dancers mostly leaving after bronze?

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Is it just me that experienced dancers from other styles stick out very well among bronzies but not silver and above? Except if someone just jumped into higher levels without enough BR foundations. Are all the non experienced dancers mostly leaving after bronze?

Most ballroom dancers are experienced before they move on from bronze.