Close Embrace Clinic... A quandry of embraces

[Zoopsia59]

The first dance/embrace is more a performance style and the woman would have to practiced it a lot to be so adept.

Please see my previous post about this video.

And by the way... everyone has to practice a lot to be adept regardless of style. But I will say that Oscar is very easy to follow! In fact, just dancing with him and realizing I was better than I thought gave me a huge boost of confidence!

(not to take anything away from Georgina... She's light years ahead of me!)

 

[Zoopsia59]

she said 'give me more space to do that move'...which meant to open up to do a simple ocho cortado.. I told her 'no' that 'I won't break the connection'...ok, please let this political incorrectness go by and look instead at my problem..even my late practice partner was asking for 'more space' or to 'open up'...I told her that all the other guys will open up for her giros but I won't and in that way she will be able to do both....just pretend that somehow I'm a nice guy..the question is; am I correct on the technique?? So, I'm trying to see if there is an embrace that will do it all...or almost all.

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.

Whether your technique in doing them is correct is not something we can know without seeing you. But you are correct in that opening is not required. That doesn't mean howeer, that you are doing them properly for a non-flexible embrace, and its likely that your follower doesn't know how to do them in a cross-back style.

 

[Zoopsia59]

- in my experience doing a ocho cortado (and for that matter a giro) without opening up at all is very difficult for both the leader and follower, and it helped me personally a lot that i had explored them quite a bit while opening up - it is not easier to do them well that way, but the consequences of doing them badly are much more manageable and sometimes not even noticable.

Based on this experience my advice would be to open up - once you have completely debugged the opened up version you will be able to close it, and your followers won't even notice that you are not opening up anymore.
Gssh

This is rare, but I disagree with Gssh.

Its not that difficult if you and the follower know how to do it in non-flexible CE. Its pretty awkward if you don't.

I also disagree that you can close the embrace and still have followers do it. If they don't know how to make their ochos cross rather than pivot, they're always going to be asking for more space.

I'm talking about the sort of embrace where the woman's arm is draped around the leader's neck with his neck in the crook of her elbow. There is almost NO ability for the follower to pivot her body for an ocho in that embrace. Nor is it practical to slide in and out of the embrace. However, all those moves (ochos, ocho cortado, and molinete) are still possible. (and pretty easy once you know how)

 

[Ampster]

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.

Yes, I'm with Zoops. This true, very, very true.

 

[LittleLight]

Zoopsia: So Oscar and Georgina will be teaching in my town in a few months' time. Looks like I'd better book the workshop now then.

Gsssh: Just out of interest. Upthread (sorry, I've been told by the moderators that as a newbie I can't quote) you mention "leading with the legs". I've never heard of this. Could you give an example or a name I can google of someone who this?

 

[Mario7]

And I'm mystified now why you keep asking these questions.
.. and you've shown an ability in the past to contradict
and ignore the consistent advice you'd requested and been given.

this is spoken like a harsh parent. .. at this stage of my development (and it's still fun) I hear the words and I hear them again and when I'm ready to really understand them, they have a BIG effect.

 

[dchester]

Mario, I'll give you one additional thing to consider. Your question asks about what is possible, but another variable has to do with preferences.

Like has already been stated, it is possible to do the ocho cortado without opening up the embrace (your preference). It is also possible to do it while opening up the embrace (her preference).

Both ways are possible, but you have different preferences. If you accept that, then it comes down to how do you (the leader) decide what you are going to do, when you are dancing with someone who has a different preference from you.

The options that I can think of (right now) are:

• Accomodate her wishes.
• Maybe compromise somewhat.
• Lead so that she has no choice but to do exactly what you want.
• Just end it and say Thank You.

The only problem that I run into, is that my first assumption (when something doesn't go as expected), is that my lead wasn't clear enough. It sometimes takes me a little time to figure out, that she simply doesn't want to do it exactly like I am leading it. Once I do figure that out, then I'll try either the first or second options that I listed.

After the tanda, you can decide if (and when) you want to dance with her again.

One thing I try to focus more on is what I can do well with any given follower, rather than just what we don't do so well. No offense intended, but your strategy would seem to greatly limit who you will be dancing with. While that might seem OK right now, your preferences might change a bit, down the road.

 

[bastet]

This is rare, but I disagree with Gssh.

Its not that difficult if you and the follower know how to do it in non-flexible CE. Its pretty awkward if you don't.

I also disagree that you can close the embrace and still have followers do it. If they don't know how to make their ochos cross rather than pivot, they're always going to be asking for more space.

I'm talking about the sort of embrace where the woman's arm is draped around the leader's neck with his neck in the crook of her elbow. There is almost NO ability for the follower to pivot her body for an ocho in that embrace. Nor is it practical to slide in and out of the embrace. However, all those moves (ochos, ocho cortado, and molinete) are still possible. (and pretty easy once you know how)

Totally agree here. It's quite natural to do what I call "square" (non pivoting) versus "rolling" (pivoted) movements in a very close embrace but you still have learn the techniques for it and unless it's done well, it is quite unnerving to be asked to slide in and out of this position for the follower.

 

[bastet]

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.

Whether your technique in doing them is correct is not something we can know without seeing you. But you are correct in that opening is not required. That doesn't mean howeer, that you are doing them properly for a non-flexible embrace, and its likely that your follower doesn't know how to do them in a cross-back style.

all true...going to where a knowledgeable teacher can actually see you dancing is about the only way to sort it out.

 

[bordertangoman]

I figure that I cannot go much further without choosing/committing to an embrace... please, jot down the pluses and minuses that you see for each of these two which are the only ones that I am considering.... mil gracias!
..ps-oh and please venture a name of both if it's possible.

Go for quality;

Alejandro made two suggestions to me;

which I endeavour to stick to

1. Be present in the arm ( its too easy either to be an Arnie lock and load position so she's held in a, albeit masculine, vice or let your arm be light and vacuous)

2. Pause and reconnect a couple of times in the dance; this helps one and there are natural breathing spaces if you want them in the music.

Quit worrying about position; unless its interfering with your dance;
its hard to say why your ocho cortado's aren't working; the space needs to be created at foot level and the woman should be able to thread her crossing foot through;

maybe you can experiment with her...

 

[bastet]

Mario, I would say the video you posted shows a V-embrace. Here is what I call Apilado: it's Cacho Dante, from whom I learned it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

He does a couple of forward ochos at about 2:18. They are not ochos cortado, but it makes no difference. It is not necessary to open the embrace to do this movement.

I don't know why your partners would ask for more space. You do need to have enough room between yours and your partner's feet for her foot to pass through, but that is about where your feet are, not about the embrace.

This is also very true. you don't have to break an embrace to do a rolling pivot, but the lead absolute has to have his weight in the right place (feet out of the way) or she can't make the requested movements whether it's rolling or non rolling, she just trips over his feet at that point....best covered in a lesson is usually my suggestion.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Zoopsia: So Oscar and Georgina will be teaching in my town in a few months' time. Looks like I'd better book the workshop now then.

I have no idea what they teach in a workshop. My lessons were private with Oscar only (with my partner) and it was before he started dancing with Georgina I think. My partner knew him because Oscar used to dance with Veronica Salmeron in Baires and he had lessons with both of them.

Oscar is a very personable guy though, and if he is anything like his "private lesson self" in a workshop, I would expect the workshop to be pleasant and informative. If they came to my area, I would most likely take the workshop, or try to schedule another lesson with him. The style and embrace they use in that video is not particularly my goal, but he is versatile. The stuff he worked on with us concerning connecting through movement and breathing would be applicable to almost any embrace.

 

[Mario7]

The stuff he worked on with us concerning connecting through movement and breathing would be applicable to almost any embrace.

hmmm, what is this thing about breathing? It's mentioned a lot but no one gives any description that I have seen. When do you inhale, when do you exhale? Is it like working out; exhale on the exertion?

 

[Mario7]

..ok lots of good advice in this thread many thanks. The woman did do an ocho cortado without breaking the embrace, later in the next dance, and so maybe I was right.
I do get intimidated by this particular floor (a stage in front of an audience of diners) and other factors there...and so, maybe I neglected my lean..I will, in the future, pay more attention to going into my lean and maintaining it thruout...the advice about keeping feet out of the way and leg-room is what I'm going to focus on.

 

[AndaBien]

hmmm, what is this thing about breathing? It's mentioned a lot but no one gives any description that I have seen. When do you inhale, when do you exhale? Is it like working out; exhale on the exertion?

It's just plain ol' breathing. Sometimes people tend to hold their breath when they dance. Try taking a deep, slow inhale and exhale while you are walking with your partner. Sometimes your partner will also take a breath when she feels you do it.