Close embrace

[UKDancer]

UKD keeps dragging us down a path of pedantic technical comparison with ballroom.

I don't, you know. I only usually mention BR in response to someone else's comment. I'm sorry you find my writing pedantic. Perhaps I'm a pedant.

It is odd that UKD is insisting that ballroom doesn't use the arms, when in comparison to tango it has a much more rigid arm frame, and yet when he comes to tango, which is usually taught without an arm frame and is lead from the centre, he is insisting he uses his arms. From his writing he should be an expert in leading from the body whereas coming from ballroom I found I had much to learn for successful tango.

I never claimed to be an expert in anything, but I don't 'use' the arms consciously. They are just antenae, and at present, I find that less is more.

 

[bordertangoman]

Originally Posted by UKDancer
I have been told, very firmly, that the closeness of the embrace is the follower's decision, not the leaders. If that is true (is it?), then all a man can do is invite a follower into an embrace and wait and see how close feels comfortable for her.

I think that the follower's decision is UK etiquette, not BsAs, and to accommodate those who are not comfortable in CE, or with a stranger...

 

[Dave Bailey]

I think that the follower's decision is UK etiquette, not BsAs, and to accommodate those who are not comfortable in CE, or with a stranger...

I think, in the UK, there is no clearly-defined etiquette.

What I advise is that leaders offer the embrace they want to provide, and that followers can decide to accept or reject that embrace. I then say that if you can't work out an embrace that works for you both, you're probably best off not dancing together.

 

[Subliminal]

I have been told, very firmly, that the closeness of the embrace is the follower's decision, not the leaders. If that is true (is it?), then all a man can do is invite a follower into an embrace and wait and see how close feels comfortable for her.

That seems to be an artifact of tango moving to other countries that are less comfortable with close. As one Argentine teacher described it to me, the leader knows what he is best at, and it's all about the leader giving his best for the follower. He chooses the embrace, whether close, open, or dynamic. If the follower doesn't like it, she has the option to say no and dance with someone else.

Of course, the reality is, outside of BsAs, it's a negotiation, and how you present yourself determines what embrace you have. If you tentatively reach for the follower, she may assume you are a newbie, and go for open. If you confidently move for a close embrace, she might be more inclined to think you know what you're doing and accept close embrace. Or she may just be an open tango dancer, and will block you anyway. If a follower blocks you, you never force it. But don't waffle either, make your preference clear.

 

[LoveTango]

It is not. The distance/closeness is part of the leading. Move to the right. Stop. Come closer. Now backwards. Again. Cross. Take one step forward. Loosen the embrace. Make a front boleo. Pivot and move backwards. Backwards again. Come closer.
Btw, as a leader who likes to change the closeness a lot within a song, I am very often annoyed by followers who keep staying glued once they're in close embrace, while the opposite (the follower who stays at range) is a rarity.

This is how I felt. As a follower, I usually let the leader decide on the distance. I think they do need that adjustability to execute different moves.

 

[Subliminal]

This is how I felt. As a follower, I usually let the leader decide on the distance. I think they do need that adjustability to execute different moves.

Yeah, I definitely like it when a follower has an adaptable embrace. Opens up so many possibilities.

 

[plugger]

I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots. In my experience the difference between the two styles of BO is that those in CE are much deeper than those is OE. The lady's steps in a back ocho in close embrace look much like a simple back step in normal/parallel feet except that the ocho is led from cross system.
Unlike back ochos in close embrace, the open embrace version may cover a wide swath laterally but not involve much movement down the LOD. It's often done in front of the leader without traveling at all.
But in both versions, so far as I know, the lady's weight-bearing foot does pivot on each step to change direction and create the ocho. Is that a non-standard way of doing it in milonguero?

 

[Subliminal]

I think it's more the lack of hip motion that characterizes the step. If there is a pivot, it is with her entire body, whereas in non-milonguero ocho her hips are free to twist and make the pivot wider. With the milonguero style back ocho, the follower should be able to keep her torso glued to the leader.

ETA: Hmm, thinking about it, I guess there is no pivot at all if you simply place her foot behind her in a small step and don't change direction. Heh, I know how to do it, I just have trouble visualizing right now.

 

[Ray Sison]

I love the intimacy and romance of a close embrace...

 

[Angel HI]

So as not to misunderstand, are you saying that that was an historical position,....

I don't know where you get that from as I suspect any intention in the
evolution of tango was entirely unintentional. It is true it shouldn't
be a clamp....

My point exactly.

I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots.

Let's take names (milonguero, etc) out of it. Simply put, this step is taught/danced in many forms. Some (ladies when stepping back) simply place the foot; others rotate the body/foot right/leftward and to varying degrees. Don't worry about it; both are correct when dancing, for example, ocho adelante (leading/moving ochos in a continuously forward manner for the man/back for the lady). As for molinete, the movement speaks for itself.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots.

It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important. If you think of the step as a style of ocho, you're probably approaching it the wrong way.

So it's probably best to think of it as a set of back-crosses, simply crossing one foot behind (or in front of) the other sequentially.

But in both versions, so far as I know, the lady's weight-bearing foot does pivot on each step to change direction and create the ocho. Is that a non-standard way of doing it in milonguero?

Again, it's not "milonguero style", it's a different step. The name is irrelevant - I could call it the "sequential cross" for example, which might be a better name...

 

[newbie]

But in both versions, so far as I know, the lady's weight-bearing foot does pivot on each step to change direction and create the ocho. Is that a non-standard way of doing it in milonguero?

What I have been taught in El Beso (a place with many CE teachers) is that it would be very difficult for the lady to do a pivot, and she does not even try. It's an ankle-only ocho, sort of.

 

[JohnEm]

It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important. If you think of the step as a style of ocho, you're probably approaching it the wrong way.

So it's probably best to think of it as a set of back-crosses, simply crossing one foot behind (or in front of) the other sequentially.

Again, it's not "milonguero style", it's a different step. The name is irrelevant - I could call it the "sequential cross" for example, which might be a better name...

It's a what? As you say, the name almost doesn't matter except so we can talk
(incessantly it seems) about it.

And for me the best way of (self-)learning it is to start from an in-line travelling
back ocho (a VU-style offset embrace is unlikely to work) with only a small
sideways movement and gradually reducing the forward travel.
You will find how your partner reacts to the changing travel, you will find
the way to convey the intent, and eventually (probably not at the first attempt)
you will find the movement together that works and
transforms the travelling back ochos into almost static back crosses.

 

[Wanderer2]

I think it's more the lack of hip motion that characterizes the step. If there is a pivot, it is with her entire body, whereas in non-milonguero ocho her hips are free to twist and make the pivot wider. With the milonguero style back ocho, the follower should be able to keep her torso glued to the leader.

ETA: Hmm, thinking about it, I guess there is no pivot at all if you simply place her foot behind her in a small step and don't change direction. Heh, I know how to do it, I just have trouble visualizing right now.

IF you lead the follower to swing her legs more by giving more energy, a hip turn will kill both the current swinging AND the next swing to the other side.
A very slight hip turn can be accomodated.

BUT: Beware of the space required for the heavy-pendulum moves...

 

[dchester]

I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots.

Take a look at this video. Maybe it's not the best example (as the leader doesn't have to do all the stepping to lead these), but hopefully you'll get the idea.

They start @ around 1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-7DfcTdzE