close or open embrace

[Peaches]

I don't think so: how can you lead and follow without any sort of contact for more than some seconds

Actually, yes. I have done it, multiple times, for ~20 minutes or so at a time, in lessons. I rely on visual leading/following. It's a great exercise for working on visual awareness and developing an independent sense of balance.

or salon without any embrace?

The same way you dance apilado without any embrace: by following the leads and intentions and weight shifts of the leader as felt through his torso. IME, it's very rare that I notice leading through the embrace (arms, in this case) itself. Generally, if I feel the lead coming through the embrace I tend to think that the guy isn't skilled enough to lead through his body.

 

[Peaches]

> in that they can correct for my mistakes

In that they can ensure there are no mistakes to correct for. An important milestone in the development of guys is the realisation that the "girl on wrong foot" problem encountered in classes does not exist in real dancing, where there's no instructor to define what is the "right" foot.

OK, fair point.

But I will definitely say that there have been times where I have (belatedly) realized that what I was doing was definitely not what the leader had wanted me to do. It's usually a case of my attention being diverted just long enough for me to go on autopilot for a step or two before realizing that I'm no longer following, but instead just doing my own thing. Or it's a case of trying to follow with my brain being involved, which NEVER goes well. LOL. I define those moments as times when I'm on the "wrong" foot...as in, I'm definitely not where my leader had intended for me to be. Heh. */cue sheepish grin and apology for making up my own dance/*

In lessons...well, there it's a little more clear cut when there is a "wrong" versus "right" foot to be on. (Me: "That's not what you led, was it? Him: "No, honey, it wasn't." Me: "Er, sorry. Where am I supposed to be now?" Him: "Don't worry, I'll get back to it.") But in every case I can think of where this happened, my teacher was able to continue leading and going with things--like that's what he intended all along--which definitely leads me to believe that he knew what foot I was not...not just assumed.

 

[chrisjj]

> I define those moments as times when I'm on the "wrong" foot...as in,
> I'm definitely not where my leader had intended for me to be.

It's worth the girl asking herself how she really knows she's not where the leader had intended her to be. With a poor leader, sometimes a big clue is the fact he's standing on her toes but more often her idea of where she was intended to be comes from her subconcious knowledge of his limited vocabulary e.g. gained from partnering him and/or his classmates in drilled sequences. With a really good leader, you won't know his intent that way because he has no limits of vocabulary, and often actually no such intent either - he's following you has much as you're following him.

In my experience, for a girl to concern herself with where the leader intended her to be does no good and usually impedes development toward complete freedom in the dance. Better just to trust.

 

[Ampster]

My Goodness, people!

I ignore a thread for 24 hours... TWENTY FOUR little hours(!) and now I don't think I can possibly catch up!

Nice to see some discussion of, you know, TANGO, on the board, but you guys are way too prolific for me!

Yup, just made some pop corn, pulled up a chair, and watching the brouhaha. :bouncy:

 

[bafonso]

Are you sure that they really *know* and don't just *assume* that you are on a certain foot?

They know to the best of their abilities. this sentence is pointless as it is and I'd advise you to avoid this line of debating...

 

[bafonso]

I don't think so: how can you lead and follow without any sort of contact for more than some seconds, or salon without any embrace?

Sure, gustavo naveira even does it in public demos. How long have you been dancing?

 

[tangonuevo]

In my experience, for a girl (sic) to concern herself with where the leader intended her to be does no good and usually impedes development toward complete freedom in the dance. Better just to trust.

Yessss. Follows - believe me. You are NEVER on the wrong foot unless you are standing on mine. THEN, but only then, are you on the wrong foot.

Now, you may be on a foot that I hadn't anticipated, but is that due to miscommunication or because that's where you wanted to be? Does it matter? And as a partnership, we just dance on.

:snake: Unless you are my practice partner in which case I berate you and never let you forget what a wonderful lead I am and what a lousy follow you are.

 

[Peaches]

> I define those moments as times when I'm on the "wrong" foot...as in,
> I'm definitely not where my leader had intended for me to be.

It's worth the girl asking herself how she really knows she's not where the leader had intended her to be. With a poor leader, sometimes a big clue is the fact he's standing on her toes but more often her idea of where she was intended to be comes from her subconcious knowledge of his limited vocabulary e.g. gained from partnering him and/or his classmates in drilled sequences. With a really good leader, you won't know his intent that way because he has no limits of vocabulary, and often actually no such intent either - he's following you has much as you're following him.

In my experience, for a girl to concern herself with where the leader intended her to be does no good and usually impedes development toward complete freedom in the dance. Better just to trust.

Hehehe! Yup. I agree.

The times I've known I wasn't where I was supposed to be it was because someone got kicked or stepped on (sometimes myself), or the following lead didn't make any sense all of a sudden, or as I was executing a lead something went off in my brain that said "Um...you know you just felt a lead to do X, so why are you doing NOT-X?" Or, one time I did my thing and caught my leader's expression which was sort of a look of, "Well, that was interesting. Oh well." followed by a shrug. I realized that I had been anticipating and on autopilot, apologized, and he responded by just saying it was OK and he could work with it just fine! But I still wasn't doing what I was supposed to have been doing.

Like you said, it generally does me no good to try and figure out where I'm supposed to be. Life goes much better when I stop thinking, start feeling, and trusting. When I don't...I tend to end up on the wrong foot.

 

[Peaches]

Now, you may be on a foot that I hadn't anticipated, but is that due to miscommunication or because that's where you wanted to be?

Or, option #3: It's not where we wanted to be, there wasn't miscommunication as such, we just momentarily tuned you out and did our own thing. Ahhh...anticipation!

 

[dchester]

Or, option #3: It's not where we wanted to be, there wasn't miscommunication as such, we just momentarily tuned you out and did our own thing. Ahhh...anticipation!

I guess my first assumption is always that my lead wasn't clear enough.

 

[Peaches]

I guess my first assumption is always that my lead wasn't clear enough.

Sometimes that is the case. I've found it's pretty rare if the guy is reasonably experienced with whatever he's trying to lead. (Or unless he hadn't decided, himself, what he wanted to lead. That's a bit of an issue.)

 

[tangonuevo]

I guess my first assumption is always that my lead wasn't clear enough.

Okay. I'm through working. I can go out and play some more.

And mine first assumption is that she is where she wants to be, and it really doesn't matter how she got there, including Peaches #3, that she tuned me out for a moment. I tend not to dance with an agenda, even a stepwise agenda, except floorcraft. Other than that, it is a partnership in every sense. Yes, I try to give wonderful leads. But whether or not the lead was wonderful, or even clear, we just dance on no matter.

Now if several different follows react in a manner that is unexpected by moi, and/or if they say things like "What the H was that supposed to be?", or polite versions of that, it is clearly time to head back into the woodshed.

 

[AndaBien]

We seem to spend as much time discussing the discussion as discussing the dance.

...And mine first assumption is that she is where she wants to be, and it really doesn't matter how she got there, including Peaches #3, that she tuned me out for a moment...

Okay, she could have wound up there for multiple reasons, originating with either partner. The point is, I think, and as already stated, if something is out-of-whack, it's the leaders job to resolve it, not the followers.

 

[chanchan]

They know to the best of their abilities. this sentence is pointless as it is and I'd advise you to avoid this line of debating...

Ok, I try to explain myself better.
If you are with your weight on my foot, I don't need to guess, assume, or know to the best of my abily, and I don't need any special skill to undertand where is your weight. I think everybody can agree on this...

Now, when we have a shared axis, the weight is partially shared: I feel it on myself, it's not something that I have to discover.
If dancing on axis, the weight is all on the ground. So, understanding where it is is more difficult. Difficult doesn't mean impossible, but it means that if you are a beginner, you have more chaces to develop bad habits.

Sure, gustavo naveira even does it in public demos.

This is a good exercise to develop balance and attention to your partner, but I don't think you can call tango something where you need to look in order to lead or follow.
I didn't have classes with Naveira, but, from the exibitions that I saw, it seems that he, like any other good dancer, doesn't rely on the sight to lead.

 

[Peaches]

We seem to spend as much time discussing the discussion as discussing the dance.



Okay, she could have wound up there for multiple reasons, originating with either partner. The point is, I think, and as already stated, if something is out-of-whack, it's the leaders job to resolve it, not the followers.

Tru dat. IME, the follower trying to resolve a "mistake"/mistake only makes things worse.