Closue Embrace Shape V or Straight On

B

bonz

New Member
I just attended a Robert Hauk workshop. He had us doing turns in the cross system. The result was supposed to be some very elegant walking by the follower. My follower kept going into the cross instead of walking backward and to the side. We asked Robert why the cross kept appearing. Robert said that I was shaping my embrace in a V instead of straight on to the follower. Robert said that many of the moves he teaches won't work with a V embrace.

I am not sure if I should change to the straight on milongero style or continue to work in the V.

What is the shape of your close embrace leads?

By the way, Robert Hauk puts on a great workshop. He breaks the teaching down in the simplest terms and he keeps you laughing.

(typo on the subject line. should be Close not Closue)
 
Disclaimer: I'm a follower.

I can't think that I've ever heard of things that work in a parallel embrace but don't work with a V. Maybe the other way around...maybe...but I can't think of any. I could be completely off--someone could come along and point out dozens of things that will only work for one or the other...I just can't think of them.

My embrace varies. I generally go for a V, but a lot of times that changes depending on lots of factors--how short/tall the guy is, what comfortable, what makes following easier. But now that my teacher is working with me more in milonguero style, yeah, things feel different and may just take some getting used to.
 
When in Rome do as romans do.

Now I'd say that it's the other way round, the more milonguero you'll dance the less patterns you'll be able to do. Once you'll master the Hauk sequence, knowing step after step where you have to put the partner and where her weight has to be then you'll probably be able to lead it with a V-shape embrace too. Or even without any hand contact at all.
 
I don't like the v. Its like having the wheels of your car stuck permenantly turning to the right, but I cope with it when a follower apots the position but its quite limiting.
 
V or Straight On

I would say whether the lead holds the follower in V or Open would depend on the dancers. As a woman I lead as well as follow and some women who prefer to dance with an open embrace with men don't mind at all when I dance up close with them (their choice is their choice, but I suspect I know why this is). Teachers have different ways of teaching a hold. I prefer the V when I lead a milonga and vary between straight-on close and open when leading a salon or nuevo. Also some followers prefer to have their faces facing the same way as the leader and so yes the V frame would be easier in such a hold. To prevent your follower from going into a cross when you walk to the outside have your left hip facing more to her centre than to her right and of course your chest should be her guide. I hope this helps.
 
Many women will cross on their own without any lead if you take two steps with them on your right. To lead the cruzada with the woman on your right side you should be turning your torso from facing to the right (ie facing her) to facing straight ahead.
I faced the "You led me to cross" thing many times after taking lessons for two years. The women would INSIST that I had led them to cross. After a checkup by the instructor, it turned out that I knew exactly what I was, or wasn't doing.

Robert was teaching you at the time, and he is much more of an authority than I am, but, Robert will also tell you, I'm sure, that the woman determines the embrace.

Think about it. To keep the right side of her chest against the left side of your chest, you have to use quite a bit of energy to hold your right hand close to your body, when in fact you have no leverage to work with since your hand and arm are way across her back in a close embrace. I have literally worn my arm out trying to keep women in place, who can't keep themselves aligned with my torso.
When you dance apilado (and I think it's fair to decribe Robert's style that way), in general, there should not be an unequal amount of contact/weight/pressure on the left and right sides.
In close embrace/milonguero/apilado you shouldn't have to use your arms to hold the woman in place, to turn, or anything.
You can test your own, and your partner's ability to do this by dancing with your arms at your sides.
In real life, of course, we compromise that. But continuously using your arms when dancing apilado should be avoided
If, after forming an embrace with a woman, I find that she is favoring my right side as the contact point, I assume that either she is not that good at apilado, or is more used to a V shaped embrace. (This happened once with a woman who was visiting from Buenos Aires. And I'm pretty sure she was dancing the way she usually does, rather than "she was trying to dance" apilado.)
Apilado is way harder than it looks. That is, to do it right.

I, too, find the asymmetrical V shaped embrace to be quite frustrating. I can't lead anything that involves moving my torso forward to the left because there is no contact there, and that's a fair part of my vocabulary

Although most instructors, rightly, will concentrate on you, and what you are or aren't doing correctly, always keep tucked away in your brain that tango is a partnership. The responsibilty for making things work is NOT entirely the leader's, and it isn't always the leader's fault when things don't work.
 
Steve Pastor said:
I, too, find the asymmetrical V shaped embrace to be quite frustrating. I can't lead anything that involves moving my torso forward to the left because there is no contact there, and that's a fair part of my vocabulary
Click to expand...
Such as what? What about the lack of left-side contact creates the problem?
 
Let's say I want to ask the woman to "step diagonally behind herself" with her right leg. To do this she would be weighted on her left foot. When I rotate the left side of my torso forward, it should take very little motion on my part for the right side of her body to begin pivoting backwards and to her left. I feel this motion in her body as if it is my own, and her completed step when she transfers her weight, and it seems almost effortless.
Same thing on the other side.
When I try to lead this same motion and there is no contact with her on my left side, I rotate, and ... How does she feel that? Our bodies are connected through our arms on that side, so, yes, if she can feel it through my left arm and her right arm ("the frame" , I woud submit) she will follow. The sensitivity to small movment is high on the right side of the emrace because we are right against each other. On the left side, however, what I do can easily be dampened by small movements in our shoulders and arms.
It can done, I don't question that. It's just asymetrical.
I can lead you to do this if we go that way, but I can't do the same thing on the other side, unless you give me the same amount of pressure with no variation through your arm. And that does not seem to be the case.
When you dance apilado, what works on the right can work equally well on left.
 
A further thought, since you (Bonz) were doing things in "crossed system".
It is very important that both you and your partner have your torsos turned towards each other as you walk "crossed" either on the left or the right.
The intensity of the connection on both sides of the embrace should remain the same. Way too often this is not the case, and you end up with a very weakened connection. That's one of the times when your partner starts "thinking" you led something.
One way to check on your mutual abilty to do this is to walk in parallel and move your partner to the left, straight in front of you, to the right, etc. If you feel a weakening in the connection, chances are good one of you is not getting the keeping your toros turned, connected, and parallel. Of course, both of your hips are still perpendicular to the direction you are walking.
You really both have to commit to staying joined through your torsos. Dancing "crossed" in apilado is really unlike anything else I can think of.
But it's really cool, too, when it's done well.
 
Steve Pastor said:
Let's say I want to ask the woman to "step diagonally behind herself" with her right leg. To do this she would be weighted on her left foot. When I rotate the left side of my torso forward, it should take very little motion on my part for the right side of her body to begin pivoting backwards and to her left. I feel this motion in her body as if it is my own, and her completed step when she transfers her weight, and it seems almost effortless.
Same thing on the other side.
When I try to lead this same motion and there is no contact with her on my left side, I rotate, and ... How does she feel that? Our bodies are connected through our arms on that side, so, yes, if she can feel it through my left arm and her right arm ("the frame" , I woud submit) she will follow. The sensitivity to small movment is high on the right side of the emrace because we are right against each other. On the left side, however, what I do can easily be dampened by small movements in our shoulders and arms.
It can done, I don't question that. It's just asymetrical.
I can lead you to do this if we go that way, but I can't do the same thing on the other side, unless you give me the same amount of pressure with no variation through your arm. And that does not seem to be the case.
When you dance apilado, what works on the right can work equally well on left.
Click to expand...
*shrug*

I have never noticed a problem with guys doing things in only one direction when I dance with a V. IMO, it doesn't so much come down to feeling the lead through my right arm (which I consider almost as useless in a V close embrace as I would in apilado), so much as maintaining the relationship of our bodies. Doesn't matter to me if we're parallel, or in a V--I'm still going to try and maintain that relationship between us.
 
Peaches, I think you hit the nail right on the head when you write, "I'm still going to try and maintain that relationship between us." I feel when I dance apilado. I feel when I dance open, too, but not near as deeply.
It is the "feeling" that makes apilado so special to me. There is no "trying" to maintain a relationship. It is. And it is the result of having gotten pretty good at all the things you have to do to make it work at that level.
 
I believe you misunderstood how I meant the word "trying." Whichever. We all have our preferences.
 
I want to learn to dance in a V
I've always danced straight on before which is fine until you dance with a leader who only dances in a V and then one of you has to compromise... and seeing as it is the leader who will be choosing themovements it isprobably best for me as a follower toadapt to himso that he doesn't feel as if half his vocab is lost.Is this reasonable? Is it really as weird going from one to theother as I have felt?
 
I have a question for you folks on close embrace.

When you invite a follower to dance and offer your left hand, many will adopt a close embrace and some will be in a V and others more straight. Do the leaders have a choice in the matter?

I find that close embrace works well with some followers and not at all with others (depending on height difference, the degree of lean and the arms position), you are struggling to get a proper dance connection and it makes the dance more difficult than it should. I often break into open embrace and this is not popular with some followers, it's like a resignation that something is not working.
 
Cortado said:
I have a question for you folks on close embrace.

When you invite a follower to dance and offer your left hand, many will adopt a close embrace and some will be in a V and others more straight. Do the leaders have a choice in the matter?
Click to expand...


Out of courtesy to your partner, no. The lady determines the extent of the contact and embrace. As the leader, it's up to you make it work.

If you find something not working, keep it as simple as possible, and dance (walk) expressively to the music. The beauty of AT does not stem from the amount and/or complexity of the steps you do. It's the connection to your partner and to the music. So, even to the most simple of walks comes something so deeply beautiful.
 
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