club tango

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Well, some of us take it so seriously because AT is a social dance, and part of the fun is (at least for me) that whenever i am travelling for work or on vacation i take my dance shoes, and i have found milongas anywhere in the world, and i have danced with people i would never have met otherwise, and sometimes we had no shared language besides tango. And while we have (sometimes ridiculously heated) debates about CE or OE, or V or Parallel, or nuevo or milonguero, the core of the dance is the same, and we usually can have quite enjoyable dances in our non-preferred styles. Its different dialects, but the same language - we can still communicate - it is british english, and american english, and so on..., not english and spanish and french. Some of the things in the OP sound like it might be a different language, and then some of the beauty of the dance is lost. I have met people who went out to milongas and realized that they were not able to dance with anybody there - and that is not fun, no?

Gssh

Well said. I just want to add, that when you speak and nobody understand your language, it may be frustrating. In tango when you fall on a partner who does not have the same understanding how lead and follow works, it hurts. Most cases, quite physically, with a possibility of inflicting a permanent damage to one's body. How about that for fun.

 

[Peaches]

Like people everywhere, dealing with pretty much every thing, AT people run the gamut on their opinion as to what can be considered AT. Some people think that only the purest of pure AT is AT, the rest is something else entirely, and the disction is set in stone and a matter of Grave Importance. Other people use a more liberal definition, and allow for dancing to other music, and incorporation of other moves, and it's not such a big deal how it's defined or what is included.

I think the reason why so many people were wary of this "club tango" and were quick to criticise the instructor is because there seemed to be no clear explanation of just what it was. It doesn't have to be pure, but a teacher should be able to say that "it's traditional tango with elements of WCS mixed, suitable for dancing to a variety of music." Or similar. AFAIK, nothing like that was evern communicated here on the forum...which raises red flags to those of us who know and understand the genre.

Furthermore, there seems to be no shortage of pros from other disciplines who will teach "AT," without ever having even the most basic grasp of fundamental AT technique. Call it club tango! It's AT with some other stuff mixed in! RED FLAG!

Yeah, some of us take it more seriously than others. But you came here and asked for our (relatively educated) opinion on a class in a dance style for which you could find no information. There was nothing concrete about what was being taught. In those circumstances, regardless of if we're traditionalists or not, of course we're going to come down negatively on things.

 

[morgrob]

Like people everywhere, dealing with pretty much every thing, AT people run the gamut on their opinion as to what can be considered AT. Some people think that only the purest of pure AT is AT, the rest is something else entirely, and the disction is set in stone and a matter of Grave Importance. Other people use a more liberal definition, and allow for dancing to other music, and incorporation of other moves, and it's not such a big deal how it's defined or what is included.

I think the reason why so many people were wary of this "club tango" and were quick to criticise the instructor is because there seemed to be no clear explanation of just what it was. It doesn't have to be pure, but a teacher should be able to say that "it's traditional tango with elements of WCS mixed, suitable for dancing to a variety of music." Or similar. AFAIK, nothing like that was evern communicated here on the forum...which raises red flags to those of us who know and understand the genre.

Furthermore, there seems to be no shortage of pros from other disciplines who will teach "AT," without ever having even the most basic grasp of fundamental AT technique. Call it club tango! It's AT with some other stuff mixed in! RED FLAG!

Yeah, some of us take it more seriously than others. But you came here and asked for our (relatively educated) opinion on a class in a dance style for which you could find no information. There was nothing concrete about what was being taught. In those circumstances, regardless of if we're traditionalists or not, of course we're going to come down negatively on things.

Thank you for your reply, but if people are berated every time they ask a question that they don't fully understand in the first place, what is the benefit of the forum? Only for the pros and most accomplished dancers to talk? I admire and respect your and the others' knowledge. This is why I asked the question here, and not on like yahoo questions. However, I did not expect to receive such brazen replies. If someone were to 'come down' on you each time you asked a question that you did not fully understand in the first place, you'd probably start to feel pretty bad about yourself. There should be no stupid questions or answers--only friendly exchanges. I am sorry I was not able to supply more information, but I had none at the time.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Morgrob, what exactly made you feel as if people on this board were berating your question and coming down on you? What kind of answer(s) to your question would you find informative, helpful, and not hurting your feeling?

 

[morgrob]

Morgrob, what exactly made you feel as if people on this board were berating your question and coming down on you? What kind of answer(s) to your question would you find informative, helpful, and not hurting your feeling?

Is there a hint of sarcasm in that? I found most of the replies helpful. My feelings are not hurt at all, and why should they be? I was merely saying that there are more constructive ways to reply than to fill it with negative connotations. My intentions were not to piss people off.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Is there a hint of sarcasm in that? I found most of the replies helpful. My feelings are not hurt at all, and why should they be?

No sarcasm. I reread all the answers and felt the same way. Most replies seemed helpful, and certainly meant no harm. Hence my question. What exactly made you feel berated and came down upon? And how could the answers be formulated more constructive and less negative?

 

[Peaches]

Thank you for your reply, but if people are berated every time they ask a question that they don't fully understand in the first place, what is the benefit of the forum? Only for the pros and most accomplished dancers to talk? I admire and respect your and the others' knowledge. This is why I asked the question here, and not on like yahoo questions. However, I did not expect to receive such brazen replies. If someone were to 'come down' on you each time you asked a question that you did not fully understand in the first place, you'd probably start to feel pretty bad about yourself. There should be no stupid questions or answers--only friendly exchanges. I am sorry I was not able to supply more information, but I had none at the time.

And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. No one here ever said you were stupid, or that it was a stupid question.

But you've got to expect that when you ask a question we will give you a straight-up opinion, based on what information you provided and/or what we know. I'm sorry if you didn't like the negative responses, but that was just our opinion...which is what was asked.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

But you've got to expect that when you ask a question we will give you a straight-up opinion, based on what information you provided and/or what we know. I'm sorry if you didn't like the negative responses, but that was just our opinion...which is what was asked.

And I wish to add, everybody who gave a less than cheerful opinion, gave it a sufficient benefit of the doubt, acknowledging that they most probably did not have enough accurate information to begin with.

 

[morgrob]

None of the earlier replies were negative...it was the ones that started to question the qualifications of the instructor. It was unnecessary and not relevant to the question. He is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Peaches seems to admit, herself, that her replies were negative. I just don't understand why they need to be. I respect opinions, and that is fine. Some people take AT more seriously than others. But dance is organic and constantly changing. Without innovations things would get pretty boring. I am by no means and expert, which is why I asked here, like I said. And I appreciate the helpful responses.

 

[Peaches]

Um...I said no such thing. In fact, I never even replied to this thread until today.

You are of the opinion that our questioning of the teacher's qualifications is irrelevant to the question. What we are trying to say--and we have been polite, regardless of how you are taking it--is that the teacher's qualifications are perfectly within reason to be questioned. From what we had to work with, it would appear that the teacher was unable to provide a reasonably concrete answer wrt what was being taught. The class is labeled as something which no one has ever heard of. We have seen examples where teachers are definitely NOT qualified to be teaching anything related to AT, yet they do anyway. Combine all three things, and absolutely we will question it. This isn't negative...it's reality.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

None of the earlier replies were negative...it was the ones that started to question the qualifications of the instructor. It was unnecessary and not relevant to the question. He is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Everybody who questioned the instructor (or the the instructions) clearly gave their reasons for doing so, as well as the benefit of the doubt.
If you are so touchy about others giving opinions about your instructor or material being taught, I suggest not challenging the instructor or what is being taught on a public forum. Some opinions will inevitably be not to your liking.

 

[morgrob]

Ok, I think it best to move on. I honestly did appreciate the replies.

 

[Gssh]

None of the earlier replies were negative...it was the ones that started to question the qualifications of the instructor. It was unnecessary and not relevant to the question. He is very knowledgeable and helpful.

I have asked the instructor, but he did not really give me a good answer.

......He has kind of called this a sandwich type tango where the beginning is the same, you add something in the middle and then end all the steps in the same way.....

.......I also asked if this was anything similar to Milonga and stuff, he said no, and he showed how those are danced, which are very different than what we are doing......

......This is more of what he calls a night club style.

I am sorry to be blunt, but it was quite difficult to get the impression that your instructor is "knowledgable and helpful" from the OP. I don't think that asking for somebodies qualifications is an implied criticism - the way your instructor presents night club style tango is at the least very unorthodox. Tango has a long history of people developing new approaches, new styles, and your teacher is doing something very different from the "mainstream". Now there are excellent teachers and dancers that very different from the mainstram , e.g. El Pulpo, but as we can not see your instructor dance the next thing that is useful to see where his dancing comes from would be to have some idea what his lineage is, where he goes social dancing, where he has performed.

The situation appears to me roughly equivalent to somebody saying "Have you ever heard of otaku japanese cooking? i have a great teacher, and he already demostrated how to make hash browns and easy over eggs, but i have not been able to find other people doing this otaku style japanese cooking?" Now it is obvous that this is not mainstream japanese cooking, but i also know that there is for example excellent japanese french pastry, and and japanese pizza, and they are very distinctive styles (i love japanese pizza btw - shrimp+sweet potatoes+bacon is a perfect combination) so the idea that there is a school of japanese diner food is not completely impossible, but for me to understand better what this is about i would like to hear "the teacher studied for 10 years as an apprentice in xxx diner in tokyo", or developed it after being a chef in a more traditional japanese place, or learned from somebody who had gone either route.

Asking where the material somebody teaches comes from is not an insult - in my professional life the one of the first things people ask for is what my degree is, and where i got it. If i were to teach tango (which i am not really planning to do) i would expect people to ask where i learned, where i dance, who my influences are, and yes, even the dreaded "have you danced in buenos aires" question (i haven't). When i am in a ma class i usually know my teachers lineage at least 3 generations back, or i know their fight record. I am honestly puzzled that you seem to consider the asking for somebodies qualifications to be negative - most people i know tend to preen like peacocks when they get the chance to tell you all about how they have studied with everybody under the sun and how they have headlined dozends of shows.

Gssh

 

[dchester]

None of the earlier replies were negative...it was the ones that started to question the qualifications of the instructor. It was unnecessary and not relevant to the question. He is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Peaches seems to admit, herself, that her replies were negative. I just don't understand why they need to be. I respect opinions, and that is fine. Some people take AT more seriously than others. But dance is organic and constantly changing. Without innovations things would get pretty boring. I am by no means and expert, which is why I asked here, like I said. And I appreciate the helpful responses.

My suspicion is that people questioned the qualifications of the instructor, because they assumed your descriptions were accurate. I stopped making that assumption, once I saw the disconnect between your description of "club tango" as not traveling, followed later by your post about what seemed to be the 8CB, which is a traveling pattern.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I don't get why people all of the sudden jump to the fact that he is a bad instructor.

In my case, it's not a sudden jump, nor is it a definite opinion. I'm simply expressing some concerns. With a lot of caveats thrown in.

He isn't; he is very good. It turns out that it is mostly argentine style with some other stuff thrown in there.

If he's a good teacher, if you're enjoying the classes and improving, that's all you need.