Code to allow Argentine milongas to re-open

[Cabbit]

This makes sense for people who have one partner. I wouldn't go to a such milonga, if I wanted to dance with just one partner, I would rent a dance space and just have a practice with one person until we drop. A milonga on which I cannot change partners or tables or chat with friends is not something I would consider at the moment.

So, waiting until things go back to more normal. However, on one of the FB tango groups there was a poll recently, and a certain number of people voted that they would continue dancing with masks on even after the pandemic is over, so I wonder if for some people things will ever go back to full normal.

 

[JournalInTime]

. . . and a certain number of people voted that they would continue dancing with masks on even after the pandemic is over, so I wonder if for some people things will ever go back to full normal.

The real question is whether "after the pandemic is over" and "go back to full normal" even make sense. They might not.

By blind luck, I went to school with the leader of a vaccine group and a prominent researcher in virology at a highly regarded university. In my current role as someone who works on games, a consultant we used on a game manual on bio-tech in science fiction is a project leader on a test for the virus. I'd name-drop these people and their affiliations, but they've been asked to keep a low profile. All are in touch with me casually, via back channels.

They don't agree on everything, but they do agree that:

1. The COVID-19 pandemic may end in the sense that the global rate of transmission will drop below levels that organizations like the WHO deem "pandemic," but SARS-CoV-2 and its variants are with us to stay – similar to seasonal influenza, with new strains annually – and we may have to accept annual COVID outbreaks that, despite vaccination, require increase vigilance and countermeasures (masks, disinfectant, etc.).

2. This pandemic has revealed a vulnerability that – depending on political and social will – might mean we get a "new normal" that includes limited vigilance and countermeasures much or all of the time. While we hear a lot about research into vaccines and better tests, there's a third stream of research into "Why now? What's the vulnerability?" It's the most difficult of the three.

I also know people in the Canadian national defense complex. They're talking about adequate vaccination to consider resuming normal operations by end of year 2021, and a full return to former levels of activity by summer 2022. This is based on scientific research, not guesswork by General Chaos.

So I'm preparing to accept reduced partner changes and possibly dancing masked until at least 2022, with possible returns to those measures for a portion of every future year. I would prefer that weren't the case, but what some guy on the Internet (or at the milonga) wants is immaterial.

 

[Rabbit]

but what some guy on the Internet (or at the milonga) wants is immaterial.

Actually what the general public wants is very relevant, since people who don't agree with the rules are more likely to bend or break them.

 

[JournalInTime]

Actually what the general public wants is very relevant, since people who don't agree with the rules are more likely to bend or break them.

Well, sure . . . but I was talking about how my opinion didn't matter to what rules we get.

As an old anarchist and former punk rocker, I don't hesitate to break most kinds of rules. When it comes to public health, though, I don't break or even bend rules – even rules that I hate because they inconvenience me or ruin my fun – unless I have scientific proof that those rules aren't useful, most often because they lag the research. That's because of the "old" in "old anarchist": I'm not old old, but I'm in an age group with 4× the risk of hospitalization and 30× the risk of death of people under 30, dance with a great many people in the 5×/90× cohort, and have a mother in the 8×/220× cohort.

And whether I feel that way or not changes nothing in terms of the rules we get, which are handed down in a clinical, detached way by a public health department that's looking strictly at statistics pertaining to illness. I suppose that some government types might eventually care more about getting reelected, and start taking public will into account, but that has yet to happen here. In fact, around here, they've just imposed the most restrictive measures yet: total lockdown with curfew, increased fines, and summary police powers. The public hates that, the government totally doesn't care, and yes, the measures are being enforced with an iron hand.

 

[TTanguero]

I suppose that some government types might eventually care more about getting reelected, and start taking public will into account

What we've had in the UK is a government that did nothing at the precise moment when a tough lockdown would have made a real difference – before the virus had achieved a hold here – and has then dithered and enacted semi-random measures at every stage since.

 

[Brummbaer]

I suppose that some government types might eventually care more about getting reelected, and start taking public will into account, but that has yet to happen here. In fact, around here, they've just imposed the most restrictive measures yet: total lockdown with curfew, increased fines, and summary police powers. The public hates that, the government totally doesn't care, and yes, the measures are being enforced with an iron hand.

I think the assumed process needs to change, which is a difficult call. I'll ignore the politics of the difficulty of that change on this forum.

Essentially government is perceived to have lost any leadership; they wanted the easy job of 'king of the world' in the sunlit uplands, but have been found wanting.

In the absence of any perceived, sensible 'leadership', people will make their own rules/codigos. That means some will continue to protect (by distancing, same dance partner, etc) whilst others assume vaccine/antibodies give instant immunity and want the old normal back. It's likely to take time, with more than a few setbacks.

And I guess that also applies to future Milonga codigos, in the same way the golden age 'milonga', or earlier representation, evolved into last year's take on the Milonga in the western world. Maybe it becomes a managed, safe, venue for 'couples'; maybe it becomes a perception of 1920/30's Berlin; maybe something else, or not at all. Any 'code' suggested now is a starter to evolve with circumstances.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

What we've had in the UK is a government that did nothing at the precise moment when a tough lockdown would have made a real difference – before the virus had achieved a hold here – and has then dithered and enacted semi-random measures at every stage since.

I don’t anything would have made a difference short of total lockdown (and economic collapse) until everyone was vaccinated. We throw around a lot of blame, but the truth is there’s no controlling the disease without herd immunity (and or vaccinations). Many deaths along the way.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Maybe it becomes a managed, safe, venue for 'couples'; maybe it becomes a perception of 1920/30's Berlin; maybe something else, or not at all. Any 'code' suggested now is a starter to evolve with circumstances.

In Russia it’s reckless dancing without masks and great fun and everyone is willing to accept the risks. People get sick and come back happy with immunity and keep dancing and will not stop living out of fear of death.

irresponsible? Yes. But a conscious choice and an embrace of life.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think it is right to pay attention to the capacities of the health system here in Germany at the moment.
But about 100 days ago I was the DJ of a milonga after a trial lesson and the (mostly young) people were happy and didn't care much about an infection. And I think, if I stay healthy, it will be the same again in about 100 days, at least in small groups. Wait and see.

But I'm curious how the milongas work in Buenos Aires, C19 codigos or not, when the residents of Buenos Aires stay mostly to themselves for a year or so.

 

[JournalInTime]

I don’t anything would have made a difference short of total lockdown (and economic collapse)

Economic collapse isn't a given with a lockdown intended to control unnecessary in-person work and after-hours socialization – especially if barriers to earning, buying, investing, paying taxes, etc. remotely are struck down. I'm no libertarian, but I do believe that these things are overregulated in most places. Why do we need so many things brokered, notarized, and validated? Why do we have to fill out vastly complicated forms to pay income tax? And regarding in-person physical labor: Why shouldn't remote robots mine ore and fill orders, given how much technology is out there?

On the other hand, if "total" really means total – emptying the streets at all hours with no exceptions – yeah, that'll trash the economy. Is anybody actually doing that? Even here, with our universally despised restrictions and curfews, we can shop, hang around outdoors, walk pets, get takeout food, see medical professionals, etc. from 5 a.m. to 8 p.m., and then there's the long list of exceptions to the rules for all the rest. The main impact is on indoor social gatherings . . . which I'm not sure are a cornerstone of the economy, though I agree they play a huge role in mental health, and that affects productivity.

the truth is there’s no controlling the disease without herd immunity (and or vaccinations).

"Herd immunity" may or may not be a real thing in this case, owing to how the virus works (I'm not saying that to be contrarian . . . we simply do not know), but it appears that vaccinations work. Unfortunately, many decision-makers don't seem to understand the difference between antibody and T-cell response

In Russia it’s reckless dancing without masks and great fun and everyone is willing to accept the risks. People get sick and come back happy with immunity and keep dancing and will not stop living out of fear of death.

Many of my closest friends are Russian (indeed, most of my Facebook feed has to be auto-translated from Russian). One thing they've explained to me is that due to the failed Soviet experiment, many Russians are rabidly opposed to any restrictions on their actions, however justifiable. While this might be spun as "joy for life" or "lack of fear for death" in the present context, be clear that it's a rebound – an irrational refusal to accept control owing to fairly recent and very negative national experiences. A fair number of Russians do some ill-advised things just because they like to dare the authorities to tell them they can't.

I'm not sure I'd look to Russia as a shining example of what to do, though positivity is clearly something we could use more of. And this isn't me being anti-Russian; as I said, these are friends I'm talking about.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

One thing they've explained to me is that due to the failed Soviet experiment, many Russians are rabidly opposed to any restrictions on their actions, however justifiable. While this might be spun as "joy for life" or "lack of fear for death" in the present context, be clear that it's a rebound – an irrational refusal to accept control owing to fairly recent and very negative national experiences. A fair number of Russians do some ill-advised things just because they like to dare the authorities to tell them they can't.

This behavior predates the Bolshevik revolution. I believe it goes deeper than your explanation. (There is a rather similar “fudge it all” reaction in many parts of the US.) Back in April 2020 when I described the contrast between words and actual behavior in the part of senior management and officials (many of whom have come down with COVID), a Russian friend in London described Russians as “reckless, fatalistic and callous.”

I think that is a fair characterization of human beings in general. People are braver and more reckless than we give them credit for being. There are certain things they won’t give up for long. “I’ll take my chances on dying in exchange for living for 5 minutes” is an irrational bet many people are willing to take. The people I see at milongas are happy and adjusted. I don’t think they’ll have a lot of regrets at the end.

Dancers who do not attend INVARIABLY do it for someone else (a parent or grandparent they are trying to protect). That is the only argument that works. No one gives tiddlywinks about himself or herself.

The other category of people who are super careful is those who are vulnerable because of age or other conditions.

All rational behavior or healthy irrational behavior...

 

[JournalInTime]

Dancers who do not attend INVARIABLY do it for someone else (a parent or grandparent they are trying to protect). That is the only argument that works. No one gives tiddlywinks about himself or herself.

Honestly, that describes me. I have loads of people in my life I don't want to make sick, notably:

• A mother and mother-in-law who are widows who live alone. It matters to me that I can see them without threatening their health.

• A life and dance partner whose list of autoimmune diseases uses up all my fingers. She can't have vaccines because they stimulate her already overactive immune system and make her very sick. She has to be careful with viruses because she takes immune suppressants to counteract her overactive immune system. She can't take most antiviral drugs because they're incompatible with her cabinet full of medications. And she works with the elderly, and wouldn't want to infect them even if she were largely unaffected herself.

• Other dance partners. The tango community here is very gray, so most of my dance partners are older than me.

As for my health . . . I don't really care. If the Devil offered me the choice between another 40 years of life (into my mid 90s) without disease but no guarantee of mobility, or another 15 years (into my late 60s) of guaranteed mobility and spectacular dancing, followed by certain death, well, I'd probably take the latter. Except that even then I'd have to weigh the emotional effect of my death on my mother, life partner, and good friends. I'd probably feel guilty about that, and end up being old, infirm, and unable to dance, but not dead.

But it isn't fear of me getting sick that keeps me off the dance floor. It's respect for others in my entourage. Well, that and huge fines. The pressures are social, not psychological.

 

[Brummbaer]

embrace of life

And, sadly, a deadly embrace for some.
I won't take that responsibility.

 

[Rabbit]

Well, for better or worse it's down to individual responsibility here (England), since our level of enforcement is low, and so is general opinion of official policy.

(Never mind milongas, whose stupid idea was it to allow extended family gatherings at Christmas and mix age groups / social groups / different parts of the country? How many people are dying because of this?)

 

[David_In_CA]

Well, for better or worse it's down to individual responsibility here (England), since our level of enforcement is low, and so is general opinion of official policy.

(Never mind milongas, whose stupid idea was it to allow extended family gatherings at Christmas and mix age groups / social groups / different parts of the country? How many people are dying because of this?)

Oh, but it's Christmas. Nothing says "a holiday to remember" like the last time you saw Grandma still breathing on her own.