collecting

[spectator]

i noticed in the discussion about the cross that there seemed to be some confusion over collection.

Collection happens by default, when you relax your leg it drops in to place. years go we used to be told to actively collect, and especially in boleos (voleos, whatever i don't know the verb it's from) to force our legs together at the knee.


Lifting as John Em says does make you collect as if you are on axis and your hips are level, the free leg will drop in to place.

I haven't consciously collected for years, it just happens because I have a relaxed leg and am standing on my axis. The only time I don't is when I'm lead a "stop" that makes me hold my leg. Being led the speed at which to collect seems like incredible control freakery and incredibly difficult to follow if i think too much about it or, going back to beautiful simplicity, surely it just depends on the momentum of the lead in the first place (with no extra additions), once the step is lead, the speed of collection will correspond. Then again for advanced followers, it will be how they take the step that it corresponds to.

Does any body still teach that we should "sqeeze our thighs together"?

Should we encourage beginners to think about relaxing their leg rather than collecting?

 

[Steve Pastor]

Having seen variations of something that means don't walk or stand with your feet apart in nearly every dance text I've looked at, and considering the fact that this is something many people don't do automatically, I'd say some guidance is needed on this; however you want to phrase it. I think it's instructive to watch people walk and stand, and reflect on the variations in hip width, etc, that may account for why some of us walk or stand with our feet apart.

 

[AndaBien]

...Does any body still teach that we should "sqeeze our thighs together"?

Should we encourage beginners to think about relaxing their leg rather than collecting?

I tell beginning students to bring their feet together, and I also explain that it's more complicated than that.

I think dance teachers often instruct their students to achieve a symptom of some other effect, when the effect is more complicated. To me, collecting means to arrive firmly on a particular spot with a strong axis, and I think a dancer can do that without bringing their legs or feet together. Also, a person can bring their legs together and not be collected. At a rudimentary level, telling students to bring their legs together works to achieve a collected body. At a more advanced level, students will understand that bringing their legs together is only a symptom of something else, and the symptom doesn’t have to be present.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I agree with both Steve and Andabien. What I noticed in beginner followers is that they leave their leg out somewhere in hopes that they will be able to put it back down if they need to. This seems to especially happen in side steps. They move their leg, they step on it, but they don't really COMMIT to it, and their weight ends up somewhere between the standing leg and the free leg which is sorta still hanging over where it was when it was the standing leg. Then they can't be led for another step.

In walking backwards, they don't get their front foot out of the way soon enough and even if they do, their gate may be somewhat open or waddle-y. Many people don't walk with their knees brushing, so they aren't likely to pass through that point in tango walking or come to rest at that point in a stop.

Instructing on collecting also helps remind followers not to put their free foot down when they complete a step, but rather stay on one leg until led to take the next weight change.

I also see many followers collect in a rather awkward position if they DO know to collect... they raise their knee so that the foot is pointed down (sole of foot to the back, heel raised) This puts their knee forward of their line and thus in the leader's way. It also tends to encourage a lifting of the hip.

So I definitely think some instruction on collecting is merited. Most every follower I've seen who didn't get any has various problems that are addressed by a quick talk on exactly what the neutral position is supposed to be. Telling them to just relax the free leg doesn't accomplish the same thing.

And yes, I agree that the instruction on collecting needs to include mention of the fact that you are really collecting your body in order to commit to a weight transfer. It can be done without collecting the legs, but that's harder. Someone has to learn what it feels like to collect their body before they can learn to do that with their legs apart and still get fully there.

Besides, even though you don't need to bring your legs together to execute a proper weight transfer, the follower can't just leave their leg any ol' place they want... they have to be aware of when it is safe to do something else based on whether it will interfere with the leader or other couples. That's not a beginner skill either.

So best IMO to get them collecting properly and knowing WHY right off the bat. Then they can mix it up as they advance.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Lifting as John Em says does make you collect as if you are on axis and your hips are level, the free leg will drop in to place.

As I understood it, the lifting John Em was talking about was the leader lifting the follower (not the follower lifting herself which was pretty much considered a bad thing by the leaders)

Since the follower can't control that, the follower can't rely on that to produce proper collecting. Without getting into the other thread's discussion, it seem to me that what is actually happening when the leader lifts as a lead is that the follower would collect whether or not she was lifted, but the lift tells her to STAY in that collected position. It doesn't tell her to collect in the first place. She would have already known to do that because she should most always be doing that unless they are dancing a more fluid sweepy style.

So your point then raises a question about how a follower rises, lifts, whatever as she steps beyond what is led. I was instructed to stay level, which would involve reaching with a straight leg and bending it as I weight it. So I'm not doing any lifting at all as I transfer weight(except the usual upper body lifting that is always present.. or at least, I wish was always present)

 

[JohnEm]

As I understood it, the lifting John Em was talking about was the leader lifting the follower (not the follower lifting herself which was pretty much considered a bad thing by the leaders)

Since the follower can't control that, the follower can't rely on that to produce proper collecting. Without getting into the other thread's discussion, it seem to me that what is actually happening when the leader lifts as a lead is that the follower would collect whether or not she was lifted, but the lift tells her to STAY in that collected position. It doesn't tell her to collect in the first place. She would have already known to do that because she should most always be doing that unless they are dancing a more fluid sweepy style.

So your point then raises a question about how a follower rises, lifts, whatever as she steps beyond what is led. I was instructed to stay level, which would involve reaching with a straight leg and bending it as I weight it. So I'm not doing any lifting at all as I transfer weight(except the usual upper body lifting that is always present.. or at least, I wish was always present)

While reading all the posts before writing a clarification, you have correctly
interpreted my intention. The lift, or even just an upward intent, indicates
she is to stay in place and it helps a lady realise that a weight change
is not sideways movement. It's particularly helpful in your case of a follower
who doesn't completely close her feet and thus needs more sideways torso
movement for the change of weighted leg.

I tend to reserve an actual lift, but relatively slight, for a cross which after
all is just a special kind of collected position. And of course a sensitive partner
will allow the weight change to be withheld usually as a result of me
applying gently increasing lift and maintaining that once in place.

 

[JohnEm]

i noticed in the discussion about the cross that there seemed to be some confusion over collection.

Collection happens by default, when you relax your leg it drops in to place.

I think Zoopsia's post and now mine hopefully have "deconfused" you!

Lifting as John Em says does make you collect as if you are on axis and your hips are level, the free leg will drop in to place.

I haven't consciously collected for years, it just happens because I have a relaxed leg and am standing on my axis. The only time I don't is when I'm lead a "stop" that makes me hold my leg. Being led the speed at which to collect seems like incredible control freakery and incredibly difficult to follow if i think too much about it or, going back to beautiful simplicity, surely it just depends on the momentum of the lead in the first place (with no extra additions), once the step is lead, the speed of collection will correspond. Then again for advanced followers, it will be how they take the step that it corresponds to.

Fair comment - I never intended to imply I was leading the speed of collect
but any leader, hopefully responding to the music, leads the speed & travel
of the walk and makes the decisions when to pause on axis. We mean
the same here and no control freakery was intended because whatever
is possible with a partner depends on that partner in that moment.

Does any body still teach that we should "sqeeze our thighs together"?

Should we encourage beginners to think about relaxing their leg rather than collecting?

Yes - two very good teachers taught thighs together, and brushing the knees
as a way of passing the feet closely past each other. And one track walking too
which really, really helps the idea of closely collecting - it results in
slightly turned out feet which aids stability on axis, that for men as well.

A relaxed free leg and collecting need to be taught together, not separately.
I like Christine Denniston's golden age description of the leg "hanging from the
heart". Now think of it as a damped pendulum which under gravity will "fall"
towards the standing leg but not pass it. It takes rather more than 10 minutes
in a class to understand it and actually practise it.

I did a whole year of so-called tango without ever hearing of such a concept.
But then I'd done ballroom for a few years previously and how to follow
(nor really how to lead) wasn't taught there either. The free leg and its
placement as a result of the movement of the follower by the leader
also has its place as an explanation in ballroom teaching.