Collegiate competition eligibility?

[dbk]

Hi everyone.

I have no idea where else I can ask this. I'm a collegiate competitor, and I dance at the Silver level (and maybe eventually I'll get kicked into Gold). I'm looking for a summer job, and one of my options is to work at a dance studio. The ad says "no experience necessary", so it wouldn't be high-level teaching stuff... I would probably be teaching complete newcomers, just as if I were helping out new team members on my team.

My question is -- would doing this as a summer job make me ineligible for collegiate competition? Because I don't want to do it if it will!

Thanks!

 

[Chris Stratton]

Tough question.

I think eligibility distinctions, like all other rules, are ultimately up to each college competition to decide on its own, but unless they state their own standards, their historic ties with USABDA (now USA dance) would suggest that their standards would be the first external guidance to apply. There's also precedent for this in that couples allowed by USA dance to teach (and subsequently disallowed by NDCA) did continue openly competing in the championship division at college comps - not entirely without controversy, but they were allowed and many others have followed.

- Especially if NDCA now follows USA dance in removing their rule against amateurs teaching, then my feeling is that the lack of any mainstream situation with rules against it would mean that you can assume you are eligible unless/until a college comp states it own rule barring those who teach.

- however, the social/peer acceptability of doing so is going to be higher in the higher divisions and the controversy possibly greater in the lower divisions.

- Because this is still a touchy issue, if you do it, be especially sure that you are not competing below your true proficiency level in syllabus divisions - if you are reliably making finals you might want to move on to a higher division even before collecting enough points to be forced to.

Summer is still many months away, how about waiting to see how things shape out in the early spring term, especially if an NDCA rule change gets announced and there is any reaction to it in the collegiate syllabus community.

 

[and123]

I know of a number of people who have taught dance for pay and still compete at collegiate comps, and I think there's someone here on DF who taught at a chain studio and is now competing. I believe that person investigated the situation before doing so, so I will not speak on his/her behalf. It seems for the most part that collegiate comps give their competitors the benefit of the doubt and rely on that person's conscience to Do The Right Thing with regards to the rules of a particular comp. I'm not saying you teaching dance and then competing collegiately is right or wrong - just making note of my own observations over the years.

 

[dbk]

- Because this is still a touchy issue, if you do it, be especially sure that you are not competing below your true proficiency level in syllabus divisions - if you are reliably making finals you might want to move on to a higher division even before collecting enough points to be forced to.

I'm competing above my level in everything but Rhythm (and that's only because my Rhythm partner is very good) -- I timed into Silver in all the comps that have started to time Bronze out. I only get a couple of callbacks in Silver in the other three styles... really, I'm not ANYWHERE near good enough for real teaching. BUT, the ad said "no experience necessary", and it'd be a great summer thing.

Oh - I just thought of this. If, theoretically, I do teach over the summer, I won't be competing... I only compete during the fall and spring semesters, at which point I would no longer be teaching. If I'm not teaching and competing at the same time, does that change anything?

 

[SPratt74]

Oh - I just thought of this. If, theoretically, I do teach over the summer, I won't be competing... I only compete during the fall and spring semesters, at which point I would no longer be teaching. If I'm not teaching and competing at the same time, does that change anything?

That's a good question. To me... once you are a pro, you will always be a pro whether you teach or not. It's sort of like saying that for me just because I don't teach college courses any more doesn't mean that I'm not thought of as a college professor by my students and/or old work place. I still have to put on my resume what I did at the college even if I went back to school as a student looking for another job some place else. Just like how you would probably want to put down that you taught Ballroom classes on your resume even if you weren't any more, which would mean that you were still considered a pro whether you still taught or not. That's just a guess on my part, but hmmm... interesting question.

 

[Merrylegs]

I'm competing above my level in everything but Rhythm (and that's only because my Rhythm partner is very good) -- I timed into Silver in all the comps that have started to time Bronze out. I only get a couple of callbacks in Silver in the other three styles... really, I'm not ANYWHERE near good enough for real teaching. BUT, the ad said "no experience necessary", and it'd be a great summer thing.

Oh - I just thought of this. If, theoretically, I do teach over the summer, I won't be competing... I only compete during the fall and spring semesters, at which point I would no longer be teaching. If I'm not teaching and competing at the same time, does that change anything?

The question begs to be asked, who will be the lucky recipients of your teaching skills? I say, you should give this particular summer job a lot of contemplation before making a decision.

 

[Joe]

I guess "lucky" is one word for it.

 

[NielsenE]

Two of the very large schools last year decided to follow the USA Dance model, so teaching would be allowed -- but NOT calling yourself a pro, or dancing as a pro. Some studios make all their teachers call themselves a pro (ie its part of the contract to work there -- which would declare pro standing....)

So if the studio is ok with your employment contract not referencing the word pro, you'd probably be ok at many college comps in NE.... The problem arose last year with a pro who competed as a pro, trying to also compete as an amateur in college comps.

 

[Chris Stratton]

The question begs to be asked, who will be the lucky recipients of your teaching skills?

If they are recruiting people with no experience necessary to train, better they start with someone who's had the experience of dancing in 100-couple collegiate events than someone who truly has no perspective of experience to bring to the job!

However, I don't know that a studio planning on training teachers is going to want someone who will only be with them for a few months.

I really think the industry would be a better place if all trainee teachers had even a trivial number of amateur competition experiences for perspective before starting their teacher training.

 

[kathyt cupcake]

Collegiate comps are generally very loosely policed-- I've seen costumes on the floor in no-costume syllabus, gold/silver level dancers leading in newcomer, etc. No one is likely to know or care what you did for your summer job and for that matter, no one going to do the work to see that ppl who are timing out of levels are actually competing in the appropriate levels (too much effort to track etc). Of course, YMMV and different comps are stricter/looser than others (eg MAC was hardcore about costume regs last year and will likely be so again).

 

[IlyZislin]

I'm competing above my level in everything but Rhythm (and that's only because my Rhythm partner is very good) -- I timed into Silver in all the comps that have started to time Bronze out. I only get a couple of callbacks in Silver in the other three styles... really, I'm not ANYWHERE near good enough for real teaching. BUT, the ad said "no experience necessary", and it'd be a great summer thing.

Oh - I just thought of this. If, theoretically, I do teach over the summer, I won't be competing... I only compete during the fall and spring semesters, at which point I would no longer be teaching. If I'm not teaching and competing at the same time, does that change anything?

dbk, first, to echo everything that has already been said - in case of collegiate competitions, each competition makes a decision individually. As I think Eric said, several large collegiate competitions have been following USABDA set standard. A quick disclaimer, I am not making this statement as DCDI organizer. My gut feeling is if an am dancer went through the trouble to make sure he/she is following USABDA rules regarding staying am (i.e. not doing Pro-Am, not calling oneself a pro, etc) that he/she should probably be allowed to dance as an am in a collegiate comp. BUT if this person just decided to go an work as a dance teacher and not consider that many others could have done the same, but chose not to because of the am/pro considerations, I would probably not let that person dance in a collegiate competition.

Also, I am a strong believer that your "level" should not matter - so when you are saying that you are not ANYWHERE as good, I do not necessarily agree that should be considered. There are a lot of pros out there who dance in pro-am competitions who are not anywhere as good as a lot of the ams dancing in am competitions (some cannot even stay on time...) but yet they still call themselves pro, and charge their students to dance in pro-am competitions.

That's my $0.02 worth....

 

[tunape]

I think one problem in the collegiate scene maybe a lot implied and inconsistent rules. Pertaining to this issue, it seems it's up the the chair of judges at the comp. I know of one, in particular, who would be very against teaching of any sorts. If they knew there was any type of teaching for money, no matter how little or much money, or judging of competitions(even public beginner comps), this person's standards would consider the dancer a pro, and banned from amateur(USA Dance) and collegiate comp.

I think the collegiate scene benefits from lack of information of individual dancers, and lack of consistent rules and standards. As mentioned, it's been running on conscience and "the right thing to do". If you feel this is appropriate, and gives you a fair chance(not necessarily a huge advantage) when you compete.

But also note that others may push your arguments a little bit further if you choose to do this, and make it an unfair advantage for them. So, would you be okay to be on the other end? Would you feel fair if you did not teach for money and competed against others who did over the summer? Of course, you know the full information about "no experience" necessary, but consider that others may not have that information, and can misinterpret your actions. These are your peers, colleagues, and fellow competitors. Would you want these feelings?
I feel the collegiate scene is definitely self-regulating, and its standards are created by every dancer. It's what you make of it.

 

[tunape]

dbk, first, to echo everything that has already been said - in case of collegiate competitions, each competition makes a decision individually. As I think Eric said, several large collegiate competitions have been following USABDA set standard. A quick disclaimer, I am not making this statement as DCDI organizer. My gut feeling is if an am dancer went through the trouble to make sure he/she is following USABDA rules regarding staying am (i.e. not doing Pro-Am, not calling oneself a pro, etc) that he/she should probably be allowed to dance as an am in a collegiate comp. BUT if this person just decided to go an work as a dance teacher and not consider that many others could have done the same, but chose not to because of the am/pro considerations, I would probably not let that person dance in a collegiate competition.

Also, I am a strong believer that your "level" should not matter - so when you are saying that you are not ANYWHERE as good, I do not necessarily agree that should be considered. There are a lot of pros out there who dance in pro-am competitions who are not anywhere as good as a lot of the ams dancing in am competitions (some cannot even stay on time...) but yet they still call themselves pro, and charge their students to dance in pro-am competitions.

That's my $0.02 worth....

Perhaps each comp should have some sort of agreement form which spells out its eligibility rules and have dancers consent(signing) to them before competing, or risk having their title removed. One item could be their views on pro/am status. If individual collegiate comps start to converge on these forms(very likely since org tend to copy-paste), it might be a basis for a YCN-wide stance on the various issues.

 

[IlyZislin]

I think one problem in the collegiate scene maybe a lot implied and inconsistent rules. Pertaining to this issue, it seems it's up the the chair of judges at the comp. I know of one, in particular, who would be very against teaching of any sorts. If they knew there was any type of teaching for money, no matter how little or much money, or judging of competitions(even public beginner comps), this person's standards would consider the dancer a pro, and banned from amateur(USA Dance) and collegiate comp.

I think the collegiate scene benefits from lack of information of individual dancers, and lack of consistent rules and standards. As mentioned, it's been running on conscience and "the right thing to do". If you feel this is appropriate, and gives you a fair chance(not necessarily a huge advantage) when you compete.

But also note that others may push your arguments a little bit further if you choose to do this, and make it an unfair advantage for them. So, would you be okay to be on the other end? Would you feel fair if you did not teach for money and competed against others who did over the summer? Of course, you know the full information about "no experience" necessary, but consider that others may not have that information, and can misinterpret your actions. These are your peers, colleagues, and fellow competitors. Would you want these feelings?
I feel the collegiate scene is definitely self-regulating, and its standards are created by every dancer. It's what you make of it.

I do not think that these decisions should be up to CoJ. It is the organizer who sets the standard. Organizer could be an individual, committee, team, etc - but after all, CoJ is there for a day or two, where as the organizer is someone who sees the competition for the duration of whatever prep time is, and even many years in a row... but of course, just like with everything in collegiate world, that all depends

 

[Chris Stratton]

Pertaining to this issue, it seems it's up the the chair of judges at the comp.

In a word, NO!

A chair of judges' job is to enforce policy, not to make it.

It the competition organizers' or sanctioning organizations' job to make policy.

Following the model of sanctioned competitions, we could also say that elgibility issues should be handled offline, not at the competition. If you hold a valid USA Dance card, you can dance a USA Dance competition - the bylaws actually prohibit any official from stopping you. To stop you, your registration would first have to be suspended by the committee charged with evaluating those things.