Comfortable Close Embrace?

[Imbrace]

Social dancers don't teach - they dance.

Professional teachers should teach - and my experience is that tango is full of social dancers teaching. Hmm.

You would say that of course!

But context is all, and I am talking of a social dance which requires
teaching of simple straightforward techniques and then a lot of practice.

Teachers want to teach, these days for money. Instead of six lessons
for women as preparation for dancing, it's more like 60 and then endless
continuation. And I am generally critical of dance teaching based on much
personal experience.

The history of English dance teaching is not a good one in my opinion.
Standardising social dances for teaching and competition has been mainly
commerce driven for 100 years and the resultant dances are rarely an
improvement on the original. Ballroom's adaptation of (argentine) tango
is the most apt here but ballroom jive is also stylistically far from
its social roots.

Professional academia and the tourist marketing that is behind the World
Tango Competition is having a similar effect on current argentine tango,
this time from within the country of origin.

Hmm .. that can stir up a hornet's nest. I like your outspokenness

 

[Joe]

Methinks it's jsut a style difference. It's very interesting that you really don't like it, because you don't seem to make any effort to avoid it. In fact, it's just about the opposite; you match that strong forward intention every bit. It's incredibly pleasant...for the follower anyway.

How can you avoid it?

I can do it, I just don't like it, because it feels like walking through a swimming pool.

 

[Peaches]

Seems you can't NOT do it!

Er...I dunno how guys avoid it, but plenty of them seem able to. It's like they're simultaneously trying to get as far away from the girl as possible while still maintaining the "embrace." Annoying as hell.

 

[Subliminal]

How can you avoid it?

I can do it, I just don't like it, because it feels like walking through a swimming pool.

Could be more than just the style? Maybe it's the grounding? AT followers are generally taught to remain solid and stable through the movement. And if the leader is neutral, do nothing. You can lead more than one step at once to get them moving with extra momentum, but it requires a very specific impulse. This combined with apilado would probably feel really weird if you dance multiple styles.

On the other side, when I am dancing with BR followers, it feels like the brakes have been cut! :-D

 

[Mad Tango Scientist]

The type of tango that feels the absolute best to me is when I feel like we are smoothly gliding over the floor almost like air hockey. When there is a frictionless sense of complete relaxation and the moves seem to do themselves without me having put any extra strength into them. It's a feeling as if I am floating on a cloud and things are passing us by as if we are looking out of a train. This feeling can only be achieved by not sharing weight. Resistance/lean means that I can't get that feeling because I am always having to activate my muscles and can't achieve that relaxed feeling that I strive so much for in tango.

Lots of lean or resistance is like a tango bear hug to me. It feels good once in a while, but it feels constrictive and I can't really dance very much like that (maybe one tanda) without craving that sense of relaxed "floating" that I get from non-leaning tango. Lean used to give me more intimacy, but now that I am more sensitive and can feel her whole body, the lean/weight actually blocks her and feels less intimate to me now. Back muscles activate with lean and activated muscles block communication. Without lean, I can feel her hips and even legs through her back, but lean blocks this connection.

 

[Joe]

Could be more than just the style? Maybe it's the grounding? AT followers are generally taught to remain solid and stable through the movement. And if the leader is neutral, do nothing. You can lead more than one step at once to get them moving with extra momentum, but it requires a very specific impulse. This combined with apilado would probably feel really weird if you dance multiple styles.

On the other side, when I am dancing with BR followers, it feels like the brakes have been cut! :-D

Well, I dunno. For some reason Peaches says I feel very grounded.

 

[Peaches]

...to put it mildly...

 

[tangobro]

The type of tango that feels the absolute best to me is when I feel like we are smoothly gliding over the floor almost like air hockey. When there is a frictionless sense of complete relaxation and the moves seem to do themselves without me having put any extra strength into them. It's a feeling as if I am floating on a cloud and things are passing us by as if we are looking out of a train. This feeling can only be achieved by not sharing weight. Resistance/lean means that I can't get that feeling because I am always having to activate my muscles and can't achieve that relaxed feeling that I strive so much for in tango.

Lots of lean or resistance is like a tango bear hug to me. It feels good once in a while, but it feels constrictive and I can't really dance very much like that (maybe one tanda) without craving that sense of relaxed "floating" that I get from non-leaning tango. Lean used to give me more intimacy, but now that I am more sensitive and can feel her whole body, the lean/weight actually blocks her and feels less intimate to me now. Back muscles activate with lean and activated muscles block communication. Without lean, I can feel her hips and even legs through her back, but lean blocks this connection.

Fascinating - the part of your quote that I put in bold is how I feel when dancing apilado, but only with a woman who dances with apilado technique, meaning she does NOT lean on me. For me the feeling of shared weight leads to a feeling of almost weightlessness that feels exhilarating. I discovered this by "accident". My 1st teachers were Salon style dancers who were strictly about "maintain your axis & maintain your elegance". I sometimes did not follow this rule & tried to adapt to the style the woman preferred, rather than impose my (teacher's) preference. As for initimacy, I've found after learning technique, that apilado made me feel a more intimate connection to the music. I no longer "felt" my connection to my partner in the same way that I do not "feel" my connection to my arms or legs. To feel the intimate connection with my partner, I dance in salon style (but never open embrace if I can avoid it). All goes to show how much variability there is in the mystery of Tango

 

[Mad Tango Scientist]

Fascinating - the part of your quote that I put in bold is how I feel when dancing apilado, but only with a woman who dances with apilado technique, meaning she does NOT lean on me. For me the feeling of shared weight leads to a feeling of almost weightlessness that feels exhilarating. I discovered this by "accident". My 1st teachers were Salon style dancers who were strictly about "maintain your axis & maintain your elegance". I sometimes did not follow this rule & tried to adapt to the style the woman preferred, rather than impose my (teacher's) preference. As for initimacy, I've found after learning technique, that apilado made me feel a more intimate connection to the music. I no longer "felt" my connection to my partner in the same way that I do not "feel" my connection to my arms or legs. To feel the intimate connection with my partner, I dance in salon style (but never open embrace if I can avoid it). All goes to show how much variability there is in the mystery of Tango

I love your post, though I am still confused about what Apilado means. Also, after contemplating it, I think that even weight sharing is a confusing concept, because it's very easy to go back and forth between weight sharing and not weight sharing even in the same dance or even with every step, or parts of every step and not even know your doing it. Even a Giro can be done on the leads axis, with no weight sharing, or follows axis with no weight sharing, or around a shared axis with full weight sharing or anything in between all in the same dance. I am beginning to think that it's impossible to really communicate about these elusive concepts adequately. And for sure, I know that a wonderful feeling AT dance transcends these technical concepts.

 

[Subliminal]

I love your post, though I am still confused about what Apilado means. Also, after contemplating it, I think that even weight sharing is a confusing concept, because it's very easy to go back and forth between weight sharing and not weight sharing even in the same dance or even with every step, or parts of every step and not even know your doing it. Even a Giro can be done on the leads axis, with no weight sharing, or follows axis with no weight sharing, or around a shared axis with full weight sharing or anything in between all in the same dance. I am beginning to think that it's impossible to really communicate about these elusive concepts adequately. And for sure, I know that a wonderful feeling AT dance transcends these technical concepts.

This is absolutely true. I was confused about this whole close embrace apilado thing for a while, thinking it was something completely weird. Until someone told me that was what I was dancing. Turns out my first teacher liked the strong forward embrace, and that's what she taught me without me even knowing.

I think the big distinction actually comes from the NON-apilado people. Their close embrace is very big on you being in complete control of your own balance the entire time. No leaning UNLESS it is part of a specific movement, such as a volcada.

So maybe we can define it as:

Apilado Close Embrace = Do whatever it takes to maintain a strong forward presence. Rely on the partner connection for dynamic balance.

Non-Apilado = Stay in command of your personal balance unless told otherwise. Keep personal control of dynamic balance.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I no longer "felt" my connection to my partner in the same way that I do not "feel" my connection to my arms or legs.

Exactly.

Because of the non precision of the translation of apilado as "piled up," and the use of "close embrace" to mean a non "weight sharing" "embrace," my personal, functional (I think) definition of apilado is that you can't maintain your balance alone.

This "Rely on the partner connection for dynamic balance," is correct, too, because in the real world there are changes in the amount of "weight," that goes into your partner.

The technical among us will ask, "how many pounds of weight do we share?" And the answer is, it depends, and it varies.
But, I can tell you that it feels great in a way unlike being "on your own axis."

 

[opendoor]

Apilado Close Embrace = Do whatever it takes to maintain a strong forward presence. Rely on the partner connection for dynamic balance.

Non-Apilado = Stay in command of your personal balance unless told otherwise. Keep personal control of dynamic balance.

No Subliminal, I totally disagree! Apilado beginners rely on their partner for balance. Advanced apilado dancers dont. It´s all a question of technique, structure and muscles. Tango dancing is a pretty hard piece of work and lean is an illusion!

 

[Joe]

I disagree. If apilado has your balance forward of where it would be if you were not dancing with a partner, then you are by definition relying on your partner for balance. Sure, you may say that for advanced dancers they are mutually agreeing to rely upon each other, but it's still reliance.

 

[Peaches]

I disagree. If apilado has your balance forward of where it would be if you were not dancing with a partner, then you are by definition relying on your partner for balance. Sure, you may say that for advanced dancers they are mutually agreeing to rely upon each other, but it's still reliance.

The problem is that they're not agreeing on this fundamental point. The lean = illusion v. lean = real debate rages on...

 

[bordertangoman]

The problem is that they're not agreeing on this fundamental point. The lean = illusion v. lean = real debate rages on...

maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh,

when i lean, i lean. I can lead a Pisan follower to a cross and take no steps myself.