Comp questions

[lucia_l]

In NDCA lingo, student means Pro-Am student. And so, by extension, non-student amateur means any amateur who does not dance Pro-Am.

To be a "student" you may not teach at all in any way.

You can remain an "am" even if you teach some amount. You have to read the rules though. I don't quite understand them. But there is a weird status between "student am" and "pro". I know Kye Rivers (grand son of Ray Rivers, nephew of Tony Redpath, son of Matt Rivers) dances as the "not student" but still "am" with people he teaches. They can NOT enter things like "pro-am scholarship" because he's not a "pro", but he's also not a "student Am" because he teaches in some sense. But he is not a "pro". And his students can't enter the "pro -am " scholarships of championships, but they can be 'in' the competition.

There are rules-- I just don't quite know them. No one stays in that limbo for long.

Which sounds like a pretty silly distinction, on its face, but it actually does make sense.

Pro-Am students are more heavily restricted in the scope of dance activities they can engage in while maintaining good standing, including a total ban on receiving any amount of money for teaching or performing. In exchange, they get access to the Pro-Am system, with all of its benefits.

Non-Student Amateurs, by contrast, are almost completely unrestricted. They can get as much money from teaching and performing as they want. Really, the only thing they cannot do is declare themselves Pro at a contest, then change their mind and dance Amateur again later. In exchange for that freedom, there are comparatively fewer benefits and less support, including prize money.

Yes. Something like that. As a student Am, I don't worry about it.

I haven't confirmed this with anyone, but my take is that these rules are structured the way they are to avoid a scenario where a de facto pro couple (i.e., one that completes at an elite level, earns their living by teaching dance & dancing with their students in mixed amateur) enters either Student-Student or Pro-Am events (with one of them declaring pro and the other not), and scooping up prize purses in an underhanded way. And so we have two classes of amateur, where the one with more access to prize purses is more heavily restricted.

Yes. And IF they have a student who wants to participate in a competitoin, the student also can't compete for the purses when they compete with the "not-student Am" teacher.

...and with a healthy helping of confusion to go with it!

Yes. I don't worry about it. But under 21 people who want to teach a little but also still compete under 21 Am do keep track of it. Then they can potentially be the "under 21 am " winner, but also make a little money. It's a bit harder to get $$$$ paying students because a lot of students want to compete "pro-am" and be able to get "the prize" or "the scholarship money".

I'm fuzzy on the exact rules. But it's a path that lets you dancers make a little money but still compete Am.

 

[Arun Garg]

I suspect very few am individual dances with more than one am partner. But there is no rule barring it.

This is more common within kids programs and social studios. We had quite a few here this week at Windy City. Within Pro-Am focused studios, less common. Absolutely allowed though for sure!

 

[lucia_l]

@lucia_l - Forgive my question if it's an obvious answer that I'm just missing but I'm trying to wrap my head around this concept of Student-Student a little better...

Why do you and your hubby do Am-Am and not Student-Student since you both have Pros?

Edit-- Our designation is "student Am". So when we dance together it can be called "student-student" or "am-am".

The 'weird category -- which hsa nothing to do with me-- is called 'mixed Am'. That involves one "teacher who is not a 'pro'" and one "student am'. Neither of us are teachers.


But if your question is why dance "am am" and 'pro-am"..... Oh!! Haha. Because Am-Am is in some sense "more real". I can't cover for Jim. He can't cover for me.

But... still it's not fair to our pro to say Am-Am is "more real" because evem in pro-am we still have to do our part. But rest assured that the pros know what they are doing sufficiently that they know what to do even if my husband doesn't lead something "right" or I don't follow something "right". So they sort of do "cover" for our mistakes.

Plus... Jim and I liked to dance together.

 

[lucia_l]

This is more common within kids programs and social studios. We had quite a few here this week at Windy City. Within Pro-Am focused studios, less common. Absolutely allowed though for sure!

I previously had two pros-- one for rhythm one for smooth. That didn't count the fact that my am-am pro was really Jim's pro. So one follow entering with three leads can even happen in pro am.

Plus there that pro-Am guy who seems to have somewhere between three and five pros? Anyway, there is no rule requiring you to decree one person is the other part of "your couple". It's not like marriage.

I actually kinda-sorta have two pros now. My husband pro-partner is our "official" am pro -- a female follow So she's kinda-sorta mine too-- even though I only see her during joint lessons with Jim. (He has individual lessons too.) But our am=am entries are submitted in the batch with his pro-am entries. (I never compete with her. But if we get invigilated and she's there, the invigilator is supposed to talk to her, not Jim or me.)

I also dance pro-am with my male pro. So Jim dances with two partners. i dance with two partners.

 

[Pryn]

Edit-- Our designation is "student Am". So when we dance together it can be called "student-student" or "am-am".

I believe I understand this the student Am concept and that you are qualified for both Am-Am and Student-Student.

I was just wondering why you and your husband choose to dance in the Am-Am category versus the Student-Student category? What's the benefit for you in choosing one over the other?

 

[lucia_l]

I believe I understand this the student Am concept and that you are qualified for both Am-Am and Student-Student.

I was just wondering why you and your husband choose to dance in the Am-Am category versus the Student-Student category? What's the benefit for you in choosing one over the other?

It is the same category. People just use different words at different times. This can (and does) confuse the student ams. I don't know if it confuses their pros-- but since lots of student-ams are not pros, confusing us "no nothings" is a problem. It may be contributing to why am-ams don't enter so much. (Dunno... there are other issues after all.)

This is going to be long. But let me show forms from Crystal Ball. These are less confusing to the uninitiated than some other forms.

First look at "Adult and Senior Amateur Entry Form" Notice I've circled "Amateur" on the form. The word "student" does not appear in this form. But am category does include "student-Am". If Jim and I want to enter it we can. I don't know if non-student-ams (like Fiesta) can enter, but student-ams like me, certainly can. (I will not be entering multies on THIS form because Jim and I dance Bronze. While we don't mind losing, we at least want to belong on the floor. The multies start at "Closed Gold." Hahahaha. No.)

Honestly, I suspect non-student ams can enter this. This form and these competitions may exist precisely for them. Some of them are sort of "beginner" teachers who are teaching some group lessons, or teaching kids only. Then they have another non-student-am partner and want to keep their "am" status. I do not totally understand the rules they must adhere to, but one is they may not enter anything called "pro".



So: that's definitely a form for "am-am".

But next: lets look at "Adult Multi-Dances and Scholarships". I've put a box around the category. You'll see three categories

• Pro-Am. This is a "Pro" dancing with a "Student-Am". Fiesta is a non-student am, so I'm pretty sure he would be hit over the head with a baton if he entered as a student. If he entered as a pro, going forward, he would be considered a pro. He could no longer enter as any sort of am. I can enter this and will with my pro.
• Student-Student. This is a student-am dancing with a student-am. So this is "am-am". However, Fiesta cannot enter this. I can (and will.) Notice that the students entering would check the "am" box under leader and follower. So... We are both "students" and "ams".
• The mystery "mixed amateur" category. This is also "am-am". But has at least one non-student Am (which I think Fiesta is) dancing with another am (who may or may not be a student-am.). Presumably, both entants check "am" as their status because they are not considered "pro". But one is not a student-am. The reason I call this the mystery category is that I do not know the precise rules that allow someone to teach a little but not be a Pro.

As you can see, depending on what I'm filling out I am either saying I am dancing "am-am" -- because we both check "am" at the top of the form, or I say I'm dancing "student-student". Both "am-am" and "student-student" describe what I am entering. Am-am is more ambiguous because it could be a mixed-am situation. I am always dancing "student-Am - student-Am". No one says that whole mouthful.



Now what is confusing? At many comps, forms don't have that "Select Category" line.

So you fill out the form, send it in, and registration figures out whether you are pro-am, student-student or mixed am based on the your NDCA registration information and whether you checked "am" or "pro".

Some student-student couples just figure "oh. They don't have multies for ams" and then don't come. Jim and I have learned: yeah.. they do. Just fill it out, check am for both of us and enter. Our money is green. And if they don't want it, they'll just tell us we can't enter that. (So far, we've never had a form rejected. Maybe they'll give us a call and alert us that they are turning the scholarship into a championship? dunno.)

Oh... and the "top amateur couple" prize at Windy City was probably for student-student exclusing Mixed-Am. We have no idea what the rules for that were.

 

[j_alexandra]

The NDCA rules for who's an am, pro-am student, mixed am etc are spelled on on pages 4 and 5 of the NDCA rulebook.

 

[Cal]

I’m looking at the information for a competition to be held this summer:

Typically, there are two separate entry forms:
Student/Student entries are placed on the Pro/Am forms.
Am/Am entries have a totally separate entry form (and prices are disclosed to Am/Am for their events without a password)

Student-Student Events – Age categories typically follow the Pro/Am age ranges, and you’d be dancing in the Pro/Am portions of the day.
Single Dance Events: $45 each early bird or on package; otherwise $50 each
The entry form implies that Multi-Dance/Championship are offered for Pro/Am, Student-Student or Mixed Am, but that Scholarships are not offered to Student-Student or Mixed Am
Four Dance Championship: $160/$180
Five Dance Championship: $200/$225
You need to pay for your tickets to enter the ballroom = $25 each for daytime session

Am-Am Events – Age categories typically follow USA Dance age ranges (so Adult and Senior do not mean the same thing in Am-Am as they do in Student-Student), and it’s murky as to whether Adults and Seniors dance in Pro/Am sessions or on the Saturday evening:
Single Dance Events only for Newcomer/Bronze/Silver:
$25 each early bird or on package; otherwise $30
Multi-Dances only for Gold and above:
Four Dance Championship: $100/$120
Five Dance Championship: $125/$150
This particular competition does not appear to offer Am-Am Scholarships
Tickets to ballroom are included with entries if you enter Am-Am

Quite often, at other comps, if there is a Scholarship event offered in Am-Am, it is typically only at the Open level and only for Under 21 and/or Adult age couples (again, aligned with USA Dance age ranges, so for those who are under age 35), and the first prize is in the region of $500.

 

[lucia_l]

The NDCA rules for who's an am, pro-am student, mixed am etc are spelled on on pages 4 and 5 of the NDCA rulebook.
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The thing I find confusing is the "advanced amateur competitor/teaching partner" can teach. But they are not a pro. I know certain things they do would turn them into a pro. Among these-entering as the pro in pro/am or competing as a pro. Those two restrictions definitely limit how much money they can make. But they can make some money.

The "advanced amateur competitor/teaching partner" can dance with a student am-- just as "mixed am"-- and that can be their private student who pays them for lessons.

It's probably not really all that confusing, but it is a sort of "in between" category where you are "professional" in the sense that you can be earning a living teaching dance, but "not professional" as a designation in NDCA competitions.

I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with this by the way. Just that if they do teach they are definitely different from "student ams".

Anyway: When we won our award, the competition called it "top amateur couple"-- but it was for student ams. So at least in speech people do call these competitions "am-am" even though it's not the "advanced" type of ams. We are "students-student" on the entry form.

 

[Cal]

One other consideration: I think that Studios can earn "points" toward Top Studio awards if their students enter Student-Student events. I'm not sure if Studios get "points" if their students enter Am-Am events.

 

[fiesta0618]

First look at "Adult and Senior Amateur Entry Form"
...
I don't know if non-student-ams (like Fiesta) can enter, but student-ams like me, certainly can.

Yes, this is the form folks like my partners and I would use.

But next: lets look at "Adult Multi-Dances and Scholarships". I've put a box around the category. You'll see three categories
...

• The mystery "mixed amateur" category. This is also "am-am". But has at least one non-student Am (which I think Fiesta is) dancing with another am (who may or may not be a student-am.). Presumably, both entants check "am" as their status because they are not considered "pro". But one is not a student-am. The reason I call this the mystery category is that I do not know the precise rules that allow someone to teach a little but not be a Pro.

You're right about the definition Mixed Am. The "mystery" is that Non-Student Amateurs are allowed to teach as much as they want to. No limitations whatsoever.

I'm actually a good example case. I am literally part of the staff of my studio, at this point. I am on payroll, and listed as one of the instructors on all the literature. By common definition, that would make me "professional" because I earn wages as a dancer (although not a full living. It's a side hustle). But the NDCA could not care less, and it does not affect my Amateur status. As far as they are concerned, the only thing that defines a "Professional" is declaring oneself such and entering a contest under that label. No going back from that.

Oh, also--the time that @joy and I competed together, Mixed Am is the category we entered!

 

[Pryn]

Typically, there are two separate entry forms:
Student/Student entries are placed on the Pro/Am forms.
Am/Am entries have a totally separate entry form (and prices are disclosed to Am/Am for their events without a password)

Student-Student Events – Age categories typically follow the Pro/Am age ranges, and you’d be dancing in the Pro/Am portions of the day.

This is more what I was expecting to hear. I've ready a few of our local competition forms in detail too and this message is pretty consisent.

I knew that Student-Student competed at the same time as Pro-Am per the NDCA guidelines. And Am-Am has its own seperate heats (lower pricing, and competitions don't seem to require single dances for it). But, that is the extent of my understanding...

I only half understand NDCA guidelines as they seem partially written in legalese and for an audience who already have a base knowledge of how dance competitions work.

Does Student-Student have to be from the same studio or can students across studios pair up?

 

[Cal]

I think the comp organizer would be ok if students from different studios entered as a Student/Student couple. But the couple might want to keep their fingers crossed that the two different studios don’t fight over which one gets credit for any Studio Points that are won.

 

[lucia_l]

Does Student-Student have to be from the same studio or can students across studios pair up?

Students can come from different studios. You don't even need to be with a studio. If there were two students who weren't affiliated with any studio, they could phone in, get information and just enter. I danced with a friend once and he sent them in himself.

You do have to decide how to send your forms in. So far we've sent them in from my husband's teacher's studio, not my pro's 'studio' (if you can even call it that. His "studio" is him and his wife.). This might make a difference for "top teacher" or "top studio" awards, but neither is in the running, so it doesn't matter. They do not fight over "the Studio Points".

 

[Pryn]

Students can come from different studios. You don't even need to be with a studio. If there were two students who weren't affiliated with any studio, they could phone in, get information and just enter. I danced with a friend once and he sent them in himself.

I'm surprised you don't have to be affiliated with a studio to dance the Student-Student category. As a part of the Pro-Am benefits that Student-Student receive, I would have thought a studio affiliation would have been a requisite, or this situation made the pair Am-Am by default.

But, I guess as long as you both register with NDCA as Pro-Am (student competitors) , it's fair game?