Constant criticism from male leads

[Alora]

Hi there

Some advice would be much appreciated.

Ive been a dancer for several years..ballroom, belly dancing, ballet and Ciroc etc but took up salsa, bachata and Kizomba about six months ago. I totally fell in love with these dances, love the classes and the teaching is amazing and I have leant so much. I go to as many socials as I can and go to classes three times per week. The teachers say I’m doing really well. I listen to their feedback and practice to solve my mistakes.

In the beginning the male leads got frustrated with me as I was ‘back leading’ or I was anticipating their moves and I’ve stopped this now. The teachers now tell me that I follow very well. Then I’m told that my hand is in the wrong place on a leads shoulder and that ‘your‘re not ballroom dancing now’, or I’m not to elbow another male lead in the back as it hurts him - I’m 5 foot tall and he’s 6 1!. Another lead will tell me I’m too fast on a cross body lead and I’m out of time and another will say I’m always in the right place at the right time. I try very hard to dance well and maybe I’m just too sensitive but constant carping doesn’t do my confidence any good.

I’ve never made any comment about anyone’s dancing I’m just pleased to have a dance!

I must be doing something wrong as I’m a.ways the last female to be asked to dance. I went to a salsa party recently and everyone was on the floor except me. The teachers then asked then pressed the male leads to ask me to dance. I try to dress well and look attractive.

The problem is there is only 4 male leads and two teachers who lead and the rest of the students are all female. Most of the females grab the leads. I was dancing with one man who rushed me back to my seat so he could ‘dance Kizomba with ‘x’. ‘

i love the dance studio, the lessons and the teachers. I try to join in on the socials i just find it mortifying sitting waiting to be asked to dance or join the queue to get a dance.

I know theres always more follows than leads but I just don’t get the practice I need to progress.

 

[opendoor]

..Some advice would be much appreciated..

Hi Alora, welcome to DF. I (leader) have often heard similar complaints. Yes, it's very difficult to prove yourself in a scene where there are more followers than leads.

..was ‘back leading’ or I was anticipating ..my hands.. in the wrong place ...I’m not to elbow another male in the back ...out of time..

That's almost unbearable. Could it be that their feedback is much more direct to you while the leads are more polite to other followers? I find this very unfair, as I have read that you are working very seriously on mistakes or deficits. Somehow it seems they keep you at a distance, but why?

..never made any comment about anyone’s dancing I’m just pleased to have a dance!

So far, you've found all these comments rather frustrating. But in principle feedback is very important. Try to turn the tables and ask for feedback. Maybe that also relaxes the relationship with the leaders, they notice that you are sociable and very open.

..salsa party recently and everyone was on the floor except me..

I'm sorry for that, but it's often the norm. Women develop different strategies to deal with it. Some always dress sexier, some capitalize on their youth, others bake cakes, invite members of the scene to their birthday parties, build mutual commitments. There are followers who team up with very shy men. Many of these strategies are born out of necessity, but somehow you can also grow with your challenges. Learning to dance outside of the over-regulated illusory world of the ballroom studio really is a challenge. Maybe my mantra will help you: learning to dance is social learning in the first place.

..love the dance studio.. just find it mortifying sitting waiting to be asked.. need to progress..

Maybe you can conquer a second mainstay. There are many neighborhood initiatives with latinos or africanos. These small communities are much friendlier and dance partners are not chosen based on looks, youth or sexiness. I myself learned salsa, tango and spanish in such an initiative next door. Just for inspiration. And don't be disappointed if only few members respond to your questions here. There are only a few active on DF who still dance salsa. The largest group is posting in BR, the second largest in AR. Also with tango, many followers experience something similar to you, maybe you post in the AR forums, too! And all the best!

 

[Alora]

Thank you very much for your thoughts. Youth, sexiness and attractiveness is not on my side sadly.

I will ask for feedback from leaders at class tomorrow.

 

[David_In_CA]

or I’m not to elbow another male lead in the back as it hurts him - I’m 5 foot tall and he’s 6 1!

I agree with opendoor, but I do think this one piece of criticism is fair for people to share. You never know what injuries or sensitivities another person has, so if someone says something hurts, I think it's best to take it at face value.

I'm surprised your dance scene is so small. Salsa seems to be one of the more popular dance forms. To echo opendoor -- maybe you can find a better social dance than the one you're going to, even if you continue lessons at your current place?

 

[Alora]

Yes I am looking elsewhere. Good advice to stick with the lessons because the teachers are very passionate and knowledgeable. There other places - it means I’ll have to travel but if I stick with the lessons I’ll be good enough to dance with eventually. I didn’t realise there’s such stiff completion from other follows. One does dress up very sexily and all four male leads flock around her with their tongues guess hanging out!.

Thank you again.

 

[RiseNFall]

Most leads who tell you how to follow aren’t actually very good leads. Be sure your teachers know that you want to be able to follow a wide variety of leaders.

 

[opendoor]

…is not on my side sadly..

But on the contrary. How pathetic are those leaders who have to upgrade themselves with young attractive women in their arms. This doesn't improve your situation, but it might help you get through it.

 

[dncergrl2]

I started dancing salsa. I had a wonderful teacher who was not threatened by my dance background and took me seriously when I told him I wanted to dance socially and be a good follow. Solo dancing and social dancing are apples and oranges and I was a beginner, no matter my other dance background. So he taught me, I attended classes and now I’m a decent salsa dancer but I still can’t break into the cliques at socials. Not to mention I’m older. I went a few times and stood on the sidelines being humiliated. Last social my instructor asked me to dance. Probably a pity dance, but no matter. We had an awesome salsa. I’m sure we were noticed. After the dance, I changed my shoes and left. I won’t go back. Your loss, boys. But I think my instructor was trying to send a message.

 

[j_alexandra]

I know theres always more follows than leads but I just don’t get the practice I need to progress.

Learn to lead. It's just as much fun as following, if not more, and you get to dance as much as you want.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'm going to make two comments. The first one has to do with timing. I have on (occasional) partner that I Really enjoy dancing with. The only thing about her dancing that I comment on is when we do nite club two step. Unless I say something to her, it seems to me she is either ahead of, on right on the beat when we do the "slow." When I mention it to her, her timing feels fine. She has been telling me that she finds it difficult to dance with other guys, mostly, I think, because they are a lot less experienced than I am; but that doesn't mean I'm "right" about the timing of those steps.
The take away there is that individual leaders may feel the music differently, and that may be where the comments come from. It's maybe not "fair," but learning the preferences of different partners could be one way to get more dances.

My second comment has to do with "pity" dances. If I see someone who looks like they want to dance, and they haven't been dancing, and I ask them if they want to dance; I NEVER think of it as taking pity on them. Seriously, it's much more like "I wanna dance to this. You are available. You wanna dance?" And here, I'll invoke the oft repeated observation that one way to get more dances is to have potential partners see you out there on the floor actually dancing.

 

[Alora]

Thank you very much for your advice. You’ve certainly given me some great ideas to put into action in 2023.

1). Learning to lead is my next plan and I’m going to speak to my teachers this weekend. I’ve only been dancing 6 months and I’m wondering if it’s too soon to ask?

2). I’m going explore clubs further afield to get extra practice/experience.

3). I don’t think my club can offer any more leads (that’s the problem) there’s only three male leads - it’s a small club but lovely teachers.

4). Happily I had a male lead all to myself at class last night and he’s a joy to dance with, I asked for feed back which he gave very gently and Very fair. I I felt sky high going home. He tends to get grabbed by the very predatory/sexy lady but she wasn’t there last night.

5). Knowing that other female followers have struggled like me has made me feel tons better and I know it’s not me personally.

6). I’ll try not take the feedback too personally from the leads guess this something relevant to Latin dances? I’ve never had this happen in other dances except from the teachers.



Can I ask another question? It’s quite a delicate one….

I’m a masseur, sports therapist/coach/teacher and have trained in anatomy and the subtle skeletal differences between men and women. Ive studied posture, spineal correction,and so this lead me to teach men how to walk/behave like a woman. This was not my choice but many of my clients liked dressing as women but their gait, posture and stance needed adjusting. It was hard work adjusting years of maleness but very rewarding. Obviously I can identify a man masquerading as a woman very easily. Usually, it’s broad shoulders, narrow hips, large skull, hands and feet. Padding hides a lot.

Anyway, the sexy lady who steals all the leads has been fascinating to watch! She always looks stunning, Asian, a great dancer. We have a warm up,in class and then we are told to pair up and it’s like musical chairs! what the sexy Asian lady does is stand next to her target at the end and ‘Voila’ she has her man for the evening. Anyway, I used think good luck to her I just couldn’t fight over a man like that. So usually I dance with the female teachers. It’s okay iim still newish.

I was watching her dance with another man a while ago and my ‘skeletal‘ eye focussed and I just saw two men dancing together. Then it clicked - this lovely, sexy lady is a man dressed as a woman.

We dance Kizomba which Is very close hold dancev. do you think the male leads know? All three male leads flock around her because he/she is very attractive. i don’t want to sound miffed but is this fair on the females in the rest of the group? The teachers don’t get involved but have commented on this behaviour but will always dance with any spare females so I guess there’s nothing to complain about.

What do you think?

 

[opendoor]

...What do you think?

I think, it actually doesn't matter. When we dance, we don't speak of men or women, but of leader, follower, and roles. In dance studios with many young people, it is now common for roles to be switched so that no one is left. I'm active in a dance scene where the lead/follow part is changed fluently even within the piece. But of course I had to smile about your little secret. When I started dancing after my divorce, I didn't just learn steps. I also learned my role as a man new and better. To that extent, I can understand it when someone plays or learns a traditional role, even if biology or imprinting once intended something else. So what?

 

[RiseNFall]

Most classes have students rotate to dance with other partners. I’m surprised yours do not do that. You might ask one of the teachers about it.

 

[Alora]

Thank you for that. I’ll have a chat with the teacher. I don‘t know why they don’t rotate either. I mostly dance with the teachers anyway and they do make it clear that they can’t provide a partner on a regular basis.

 

[Alora]

Happy New Year

I‘m just giving you an update. I spoke to my teachers about learning to lead one day but i was told it was too soon for me. They explained that I’m an improver and still have lots of routines to learn. I accepted their decision but It doesn’t help with my (very real) need to practice with a partner though. Perhaps I’m overthinking things but I feel that I’m not going to progress, despite going to classes three times per week. I do go home and practice but it’s lonely on my own. The teachers know I want learn more and give me lots new moves to work on at home.

im searching other clubs that I can go for social dances to but I do feel very sad as I’m so happy with this club. It’s just there’s not many leads to dance with at their dances.

There is an intermediate class that this club runs which two of the male leads go to and get intense tuition from the teachers. There are some other couples who go too who pretty advanced. My goal is to join this class because there is more of chance to learn more and practice with some one regularly.

what do I need to do to get into the intermediate class and how long does it take to go from improver to intermediate?