Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

Only projection, only standing having the axis, only pushing of the back foot, etc...
...
For example, I could identify some of the taught elements as part of a style and not of basic technique, which allows me to focus more on the elementary aspects...
...
I can't really comment on your opinion about walking/dancing yet, but in my personal case I was rather fed with patterns than with walking and somehow still feel like an "impostor" in the sense that I can do them but somehow don't feel my balance and body control yet. But I might see these things differently one day.
As JohnEm stated, it depends on what kind of projection you mean and its origin. For me it would be upper torso, but that gets support from the standing leg as well. I also agree with JohnEm that balance (and posture) are critical to a good walk (and good tango in general). The walk in tango, to the extent that we get to use it, can be a beautiful thing when done well. Just look at some videos of dancers with good walks (Dispari had a nice one, he was noted for it, or check out Adrian & Amanda Costa) for comparison. It does take time to learn but can be basis for many other movements as well. How you get there is (I think) a constant process of refinement -- walking, exercising, walking, readjusting, trying it with different followers, and making sure your posture is correct throughout. A lot to focus on, I know.
 
Right now, I don’t really have anither option than to stick to my school and try to progress in this way.
For some reason, this step projection thing is the part that has me most sceptical yet, but I think I’m slowly getting the general idea of weight transfer slowly - at least mentally.

I’ll watch some videos of him right now..
Weight transfer is something very different from projection. Weight transfer simply refers to the leg that supports your weight, your standing leg, as opposed to your free leg.
 
Weight transfer is something very different from projection. Weight transfer simply refers to the leg that supports your weight, your standing leg, as opposed to your free leg.
That’s what I meant: Sceptical about projection, but focused on the weight transfer.
 
To me, it's wrong. While to @opendoor, probably it's good!
And while you can dance like that (well not without connection)
this way of dancing comes from performance.

I will argue it is an exaggerated break down of body mechanics of natural walking used as a tool to teach. A grounded dance resulting from holding the weight on standing foot as the other free leg steps forward or back, doesn't hamper the connection. You are perhaps talking about where some instructors teach sitting down and lowering on the standing leg, extending the other free leg forward and then pushing off the standing feet on to the fully extended in forward motion. It may be good as an excercise. To practice walking properly without bad posture. That could be an easier way to get people to start grounded walking. It is our walking mechanic is everyday life. It is exactly how we climb up the stairs. We don't fall into the next step when walking up the stairs. It is also how we balance ourselves. I see many dancers with bad habits of falling into the step or when they move, it is not clear.

It has become more popular now. I taken workshops from several different instructors where this get taught. Some are better than others at explaining it. I agree with the principle behind it. That principle is also used in salsa dancing. I suspect universal to any dance that is to be danced grounded. Putting it correctly into the tango walk when dancing is a more nuanced and longer detailed discussion. The weight distributio on the foot, forward weighted or back weighted, transfer of weight from toe to heel or heel to toe, etc. Easier to do it in person.

Tangochaos.com has also discussed this in detail with some animated illustrations.

If you watch the Ricardo Vidort videos you'll see no step projection,
his step is the very extreme opposite in which his step (foot landing)
is delayed as long as possible - not in relation to the beat but in
relation to the movement and the weight of his body.

I like how he walks. I see the walking mechanics in to be correct. I don't see chest projection in his dancing. It is a relaxed on his axis, well balanced walk with no unnecessary bending of knees. To walk that way with a partner takes plenty of practice for people starting tango as adults.

May be have different meaning of images that terms like "chest projection" and "leg projections" conjure up in our minds. I don't consider exaggerated forward leg extension while staying fully weighted on standing leg to be a projection (of intention). The intention can be projected by slightest (but clear) movement in ones body. The exaggerated forward leg is a result, when it gets taught that way. You are correct and I agree. It is not good to transfer the exaggeration into social dancing. To me "chest projection" conjures up images of how it was popular to teach "apilado" dancing when I started. It was taught as leaning into each other using the chest. Instead of correctly explaining forward weightedness when in embrace that causes natural lean. Leaning into each other is different than natural lean when weight is in the ball of the feet. When leaning into each other the point of contact is the chest. In that type of hold/embrace, if you start forward movement, the partner feels it first and most pronounced at the point of contact. Which is the chest. All actions done down below at the feet level are emitted through that chest contact. The leaning into partner dampens a lot of clarity in the rest of the body. While the chest amplifies it. Since chest it point of contact, rather incorrectly I was taught to involve and initiate movement at the chest. To me that is chest lead and chest projection. I abandoned that many years ago. It was a show style dancing embrace taken to the social dance floor. I don't see the leaning into each other that I am talking about in Ricardo Vidort's dancing. I see that as upright dancing in my books. It has the natural lean but not "leaning into". I seen others demonstrate and dance with that "leaning into each other".

Tango after all is about dancing in degrees :)


These two ways of dancing are the extreme opposites and there
many variations of connection, body posture and movement
between the two. When you know enough, are physically strong enough
and confident enough, then that may be the time to choose.
Meanwhile along the way you will possibly learn all the contradictions and
the only the way to stop that is to take control of your learning yourself.

I suspect we are talking about the same things. The words are getting in the way. The meaning, the context and image "projection" conjures up in our mind is different. I have started to be believe that the contradictions in Tango result from trying different ways to convey same basic principles. I strongly suspect that there was probably no systematic break down and conscious attention paid to how body mechanics work. It wasn't needed. Whatever was explained was to the best of ability of what a good experienced dancer "thought" was happening in his or her body. I think with so many people dancing in different parts of the world, teaching Tango becoming means of making a living, the technique cleaniness demanded at competition level like mundial, etc has bought those things into more focus. With adult dancers coming from background in engineering, science, law, finance, etc more logic is being demanded of the tango instructors. The GA dancers had more time to refine their dancing. When dancing as much as they probably did, they unconsciously figured out a lot of those things on their own. Perhaps unconsciously. The learners today are expecting conscious competence in the way instructors are teaching them the movements. That is leading the instructors to consciously figure out and therefore many contradictions we see.

Also there can be more than one way to dance. We adjust to partners way of dancing. Again it is matter of degrees. How much adjustment needs to be made to have an enjoyable, pleasurable, well connected dance. There are also many wrong ways to dance. That hinder the enjoyable, pleasurable, well connected dance. We haven't started talking about the chemistry with the partner. Why we enjoy some partners more than others.
 
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Weight transfer is something very different from projection. Weight transfer simply refers to the leg that supports your weight, your standing leg, as opposed to your free leg.

I agree. Projection of intention is different than a physical act of extending a leg. Latter is a physical projection of a body part through a tangible movement.
 
I think of how babies learn to walk. They first wobble, struggle to stand on two legs and balance, stepping action with one foot a time, toes pointing outwards with wide distance between legs, sometimes falling, then figuring how to run, running with leaning forward and arms extended to counter balance and falling, eventually walking and running without falling. All those learning actions if we break down are very complex. If someone had to teach a baby the mechanics to walk, imagine what nightmare of contradictions it would be for the parents :)
 
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Right now, I don’t really have anither option than to stick to my school and try to progress in this way.
For some reason, this step projection thing is the part that has me most sceptical yet, but I think I’m slowly getting the general idea of weight transfer slowly - at least mentally.

I’ll watch some videos of him right now..

Learn what works. Learn and discard that doesn't work for you. There is plenty of time for refinement. At times you will have an eureka moment of discovering what you discarded actually works. It depends on where in your learning journey you are, who is teaching, your own self awareness, thinking about body mechanics, trial and errors. Who said journey isn't fun :)
 
I will argue it is an exaggerated break down of body mechanics of natural walking used as a tool to teach. A grounded dance resulting from holding the weight on standing foot as the other free leg steps forward or back, doesn't hamper the connection. You are perhaps talking about where some instructors teach sitting down and lowering on the standing leg, extending the other free leg forward and then pushing off the standing feet on to the fully extended in forward motion. It may be good as an excercise. To practice walking properly without bad posture. That could be an easier way to get people to start grounded walking. It is our walking mechanic is everyday life. It is exactly how we climb up the stairs. We don't fall into the next step when walking up the stairs. It is also how we balance ourselves. I see many dancers with bad habits of falling into the step or when they move, it is not clear.

It has become more popular now. I taken workshops from several different instructors where this get taught. Some are better than others at explaining it. I agree with the principle behind it. That principle is also used in salsa dancing. I suspect universal to any dance that is to be danced grounded. Putting it correctly into the tango walk when dancing is a more nuanced and longer detailed discussion. The weight distributio on the foot, forward weighted or back weighted, transfer of weight from toe to heel or heel to toe, etc. Easier to do it in person.

Tangochaos.com has also discussed this in detail with some animated illustrations.



I like how he walks. I see the walking mechanics in to be correct. I don't see chest projection in his dancing. It is a relaxed on his axis, well balanced walk with no unnecessary bending of knees. To walk that way with a partner takes plenty of practice for people starting tango as adults.

May be have different meaning of images that terms like "chest projection" and "leg projections" conjure up in our minds. I don't consider exaggerated forward leg extension while staying fully weighted on standing leg to be a projection (of intention). The intention can be projected by slightest (but clear) movement in ones body. The exaggerated forward leg is a result, when it gets taught that way. You are correct and I agree. It is not good to transfer the exaggeration into social dancing. To me "chest projection" conjures up images of how it was popular to teach "apilado" dancing when I started. It was taught as leaning into each other using the chest. Instead of correctly explaining forward weightedness when in embrace that causes natural lean. Leaning into each other is different than natural lean when weight is in the ball of the feet. When leaning into each other the point of contact is the chest. In that type of hold/embrace, if you start forward movement, the partner feels it first and most pronounced at the point of contact. Which is the chest. All actions done down below at the feet level are emitted through that chest contact. The leaning into partner dampens a lot of clarity in the rest of the body. While the chest amplifies it. Since chest it point of contact, rather incorrectly I was taught to involve and initiate movement at the chest. To me that is chest lead and chest projection. I abandoned that many years ago. It was a show style dancing embrace taken to the social dance floor. I don't see the leaning into each other that I am talking about in Ricardo Vidort's dancing. I see that as upright dancing in my books. It has the natural lean but not "leaning into". I seen others demonstrate and dance with that "leaning into each other".

Tango after all is about dancing in degrees :)




I suspect we are talking about the same things. The words are getting in the way. The meaning, the context and image "projection" conjures up in our mind is different. I have started to be believe that the contradictions in Tango result from trying different ways to convey same basic principles. I strongly suspect that there was probably no systematic break down and conscious attention paid to how body mechanics work. It wasn't needed. Whatever was explained was to the best of ability of what a good experienced dancer "thought" was happening in his or her body. I think with so many people dancing in different parts of the world, teaching Tango becoming means of making a living, the technique cleaniness demanded at competition level like mundial, etc has bought those things into more focus. With adult dancers coming from background in engineering, science, law, finance, etc more logic is being demanded of the tango instructors. The GA dancers had more time to refine their dancing. When dancing as much as they probably did, they unconsciously figured out a lot of those things on their own. Perhaps unconsciously. The learners today are expecting conscious competence in the way instructors are teaching them the movements. That is leading the instructors to consciously figure out and therefore many contradictions we see.

Also there can be more than one way to dance. We adjust to partners way of dancing. Again it is matter of degrees. How much adjustment needs to be made to have an enjoyable, pleasurable, well connected dance. There are also many wrong ways to dance. That hinder the enjoyable, pleasurable, well connected dance. We haven't started talking about the chemistry with the partner. Why we enjoy some partners more than others.

Apologies for typos and grammatical errors. Not easy to type long posts on a phone.
 
Have a look at this, just for the walk. They are performing here, so this is not exactly applicable, but the guy has a really fine walk. I'd like to know what others think of it, too.

Horrible! This is a classic example of Tango
reduced to a walk and pauses utilising
step projection, bending the standing leg, taut
unnatural embrace, heel lead and bad posture.

There's so much more to Tango than this.
 
Horrible! This is a classic example of Tango
reduced to a walk and pauses utilising
step projection, bending the standing leg, taut
unnatural embrace, heel lead and bad posture.

There's so much more to Tango than this.
Indeed there is, although I, for one, am not shocked by it. It's a performance and they're performers, so we can take that into consideration. You probably like Vidort more than I do. I see him as an important figure in tango and inspiring in many ones but I would not want to mimic his style. Then, how about this, which is very, very different:

 
Horrible! ...step projection, bending the standing leg, taut
unnatural embrace, heel lead and bad posture.
But it is a style question, John, they dance without any mistake (seen through Urquiza glasses). Of course you are free to reject the style, but you should acknowledge the mastery.

..how about this, which is very, very different..
I like the footwork and musicality of this guy. But concerning styles, its a mishmash.
 
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Have a look at this, just for the walk. They are performing here, so this is not exactly applicable, but the guy has a really fine walk. I'd like to know what others think of it, too.


They were my favorites for a long time! I appreciate their musicality and elegance!

I have participated in a few of their workshops as well as in several Disparis' workshops. Costas are their students.
 
Have a look at this, just for the walk. They are performing here, so this is not exactly applicable, but the guy has a really fine walk. I'd like to know what others think of it, too.

Their musical interpretation and technical execution of the smooth walk is very good imo. The embrace does look stiff but this seems to be a typical performance thing

Then, how about this, which is very, very different:

I personally don't like this style, the combination of bent knees and short steps doesn't look good, the left arm is also very high. I think these are social dancers, looking good to the audience is probably not high on their priority list and they are just dancing as they would in a milonga though? (now someone is going to tell me they're famous)
 

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