ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
No milonguero ever called himself a milonguero.
Contradictions in teaching “caminar”
- Thread starter latinjazz
- Start date
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I see them as very different, much as I dislike both of them. Not much caminar here, either.
i struggled with that translation actually, because "i am a milonguero" has such a strong flavour - milonguero there is an adjective, not a noun (i think) , so a better translation might be "i am like they are at milongas" or "i am milogueroish", or something? (similarly when i put "bailarines" as performers - as far as i understand in this context it means academically trained dancers - i think salsa uses the expression studio dancers vs. street dancers). Anybody whose argentinean spanish is up to parsing these nuances here, mine is a bit rusty and i did it just quickly?
opendoor
Forum Master
I once watched an interview with Cacho Dante (the inventor of the so-called milonguero style) on Mónica Paz‘s YT channel Prácitimilonguero. When Cacho was ask if he was a milonguero, he was quite upset: he was a bailarín, milongueros were poor dancers. Bailarines used to dance to Pugliese and above. This is a good example for irony in history
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
It's a noun in that sentence. Yo soy [un] milonguero. Yes, it has a strong flavor. Bailarines could be performers. Not sure here.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I once watched an interview with Cacho Dante (the inventor of the so-called milonguero style) on Mónica Paz‘s YT channel Prácitimilonguero. When Cacho was ask if he was a milonguero, he was quite upset: he was a bailarín, milongueros were poor dancers. Bailarines used to dance to Pugliese and above. This is a good example for irony in history
Did Dante actually say he "invented" it? That would be an overreach I would think. There was a funny comment I read somewhere in which someone called a well-known milonguero a milonguero and he got very upset and replied. "I'm no milonguero, I have a job!" What would Pugliese and above mean though? Where do you go beyond Pugliese? I wonder what Dante thought of Vidort?
Yeah I'm curious about what was actually meant by that, too.
opendoor
Forum Master
Please excuse my English, perhaps "and the like" would be better. I haven´t got the time to rewatch that vid and I do not remember the exact wording.
No I said so to explain who Cacho Dante was. The vid also is interesting in concern of that special relationship between Cacho and Susana.
Just found this.. https://www.dance-forums.com/threads/musicality-trouble.48042/page-5#post-1111601
Oh no worries, that makes sense, those of us who are Pugliese fans can sympathize
Numawan
Well-Known Member
Personally, I regard such aspects as purely stylistic. Chicho and Lucia could probably execute all these moves if they wanted to. And vice-versa, Virulazo and Elvira would be able to execute all the moves of Chicho and Lucia. In both cases with no or minimal training. That’s why I say that they have the same dance foundations, the same dance technique.
Sometimes i dislike todotango - i never understand what is mirrored in english and what isn't. The interview with virulazo exists in english, too. Anyway, i was looking around and here is another entry for the "what is style anyway" discussion:
"I insist on these definitions. Salon tango is the tango danced within the music chords keeping the beat and elegance. It is the one called tango liso (straight tango). Masters of that style were Manuel Crespo and Juan César Mendieta. The outskirts tango (tango orillero) is the one that highlights beat, elegance and figure. Virulazo stood out either in the outskirts tango or the style for show. Tango canyengue derived from those. Its creator was José Méndez, who by exaggerating its movements included body rhythm. Another famous canyengue was Tarila (José Giambuzzi).
Despite they did not stir up the same interest, there were the milonga candombe (like those of Sebastián Piana and Homero Manzi) and the porteño waltz which derives from the criollo waltz and it is a danceable waltz like “Corazón de oro”, “Palomita blanca”, “Cortando camino” and many more with the same tango choreographies but in a waltz beat. It was important the way almost all young people were fond of dancing and, in many cases, they formed gangs that followed certain orchestras because each one has its own signature beat."
So based on these definitions (that he INSISTS on) we today are mostly tango liso, with the nuevo dancers being tango orillero?
"I insist on these definitions. Salon tango is the tango danced within the music chords keeping the beat and elegance. It is the one called tango liso (straight tango). Masters of that style were Manuel Crespo and Juan César Mendieta. The outskirts tango (tango orillero) is the one that highlights beat, elegance and figure. Virulazo stood out either in the outskirts tango or the style for show. Tango canyengue derived from those. Its creator was José Méndez, who by exaggerating its movements included body rhythm. Another famous canyengue was Tarila (José Giambuzzi).
Despite they did not stir up the same interest, there were the milonga candombe (like those of Sebastián Piana and Homero Manzi) and the porteño waltz which derives from the criollo waltz and it is a danceable waltz like “Corazón de oro”, “Palomita blanca”, “Cortando camino” and many more with the same tango choreographies but in a waltz beat. It was important the way almost all young people were fond of dancing and, in many cases, they formed gangs that followed certain orchestras because each one has its own signature beat."
So based on these definitions (that he INSISTS on) we today are mostly tango liso, with the nuevo dancers being tango orillero?
opendoor
Forum Master
Think you know my mantra: do not let Argentinians explain their tango history! Its a chain of suppression, forgetting, reconstruction, and wishful thinking...
The author seems to ignore the historic dimension. Orillero of course mostly was danced in the outskirts, but it rather was a tango style of the 20s. The best definition would be: orillero = canyengue with figures. The required space determined whether the dancing was orillero or canyengue. And thus downtown BsAs was canyengue-land.
But there also is a true aspect in it. Nuevo-haters always claim that ganchos, colgadas, volcadas and the like were invented by nuevo dancers. But this is not the case. These figures really are old stuff, partly older than tango itself. Nuevo dancers revived and incorporated what was omitted or banned by the guardia nueva. History always repeats itself. The change from guardia vieja to nueva was as deep and unsparing, as the change to tango nuevo, or neotango.
Last edited:
opendoor
Forum Master
Unfortunately (for Argentinians) the oldest evidence for orillero comes from an European guy...
And as far as I know the list wasn´t altered, yet.
And as far as I know the list wasn´t altered, yet.
I agree, but it is only human nature and not just Argentines.
It's best avoiding speculation yourself about a distant dance
(in time and distance) unless you absolutely do know better.
Other probably more deeply researched opinions
would seem to dispute this. Oh what irony!
Don't let Argentines explain their own Tango history
but you think you know better.
You're on stronger ground here because the "originators"
of Nuevo are still here to retell, as indeed they have many times.
While we know that Nuevo was the outcome of a study by dancers
(mainly non-social) to codify (and name of course), they don't seem
to admit that it was so they could reinvent their own modern and
dramatic form for their own commercial purposes.
Whether you call it Guardia Nueva or Tango Nuevo you should remember
that what we see in films and video are staged performances, both old
and more recent, notable for their need of much space.
They are not social dancing but anti-social dancing.