Crossing over from ballroom to Tango

[opendoor]

I'm convinced of this....

@ tmonk Beware: to make music and to dance music are extrem antithesis. There are only a few professional musicians that are comparable good dancers. And I for myself regard Chico Frumboly (one of our todays tango gods) to be a much better musician than a dancer.
:bkick:

 

[tangomonkey]

Interest in the El Choclo thread has been almost exclusively a leader thing. The posts and PM's I get are 99% leaders. A follower's post was highly antagonistic, saying my "discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating." (Maybe she wanted lush, sweeping romantized descriptions instead).

An open question: Why this split?

 

[tangomonkey]

@ tmonk Beware: to make music and to dance music are extrem antithesis. There are only a few professional musicians that are comparable good dancers.

Maybe, maybe not. True, I'm a better musician than a dancer. But I don't think that matters too much. Is my dancing good enough to please my partners? That's the question I think matters more.

And I for myself regard Chico Frumboly (one of our todays tango gods) to be a much better musician than a dancer.
:bkick:

I have no idea how good a musician he is, but at his best I find his dancing highly musical.

 

[pygmalion]

pygmalion, I dont understand your answer. Doesnt Zoop express no need for analysis, as well?

Yes. "I hear you," is an American colloquialism that means, "I agree with what you are saying."

And I didn't say that analysis doesn't have a valuable place. I think it does. I just think that being willing to go into engineering analysis of every pattern, while researching music and dance history is a pretty high hurdle for someone new to tango to be expected to jump.

Why not just dance? Maybe the "founders" of tango as we know it were into in-depth musical and historical analysis. Who knows? Not me. Or maybe they just danced what made sense at the time and now here we are a "billion" years later, trying to figure out what was in their heads. Who really knows?

 

[opendoor]

open question: Why this split?

Im a leader, so may I answer although? Did you ever follow? My first teacher trained us to dance either role. When following, the attention goes into a totally different direction. If not you will not become as good in following as possible. You have to decide which side you are on, where your attention your awareness is going to. I know some women who changed their role, and I noted it long before: they listened to the music as I did and sometimes we got into a very subtile rivalry.


By the way, (beg your pardon) I havent read all of your posts, but till now I was profoundly convinced that you are a leading guy. Are you anyway?

 

[opendoor]

find his dancing highly musical.

@ tmonk: may be in a higher sense it is no contradiction

Yes. "I hear you," is an American colloquialism that means, "I agree..."

@ lion Thanks for clarification. I thought more into the direction of "hear the message well but lack Faith's constant trust."

..researching music and dance history is a pretty high hurdle for someone new to tango to be expected to jump.

It becomes a daily routine. Tango teaching is different. The syllabus constists of steps, musicality, body work, social skills, tradition an cultural background. A third of every tango lesson should deal with music. If not, leave that.. BR teaching is made up of five different dances, so the music training degrades to a reading of speed informations.

Why not just dance? Maybe the "founders" of tango as we know it were into in-depth musical and historical analysis. Who knows? Not me. Or maybe they just danced what made sense at the time and now here we are a "billion" years later, trying to figure out what was in their heads. Who really knows?

Good post lion, exactly what I think and feel. But there is a slight difference in our perception. (Ok, Im interested in history as well) but I dont meditate with yellowed photos, submerge into flickering movie footage, struggle with badly copied music scores, or deepen in shrewd treatises. (yet, I do all of these, by the way, however). But once I simply watched tango dancers of today and it knocked my socks off. I wanted to dance this way. And you have to learn a lot about your spine, muscles and movements, but you only can dance tango (sorry for my missionary undertone) if you can interpret the music. And you only can interpret the music, if you understand the music. You actually do not need the music theory but a melancholy heart.
.

 

[pygmalion]

Is it not possible to be aware of (and perhaps use) the dynamics of the dance regardless of role?

 

[AndaBien]

...I just think that being willing to go into engineering analysis of every pattern, while researching music and dance history is a pretty high hurdle for someone new to tango to be expected to jump...

@Pygmalian - I don't recall anyone saying this was expected. If you're not interested in all the analysis and just prefer to dance, that's fine. Go right ahead.

I, for one, enjoy understanding things from many different angles. Maybe it contributes to my dancing, maybe not. I do the analysis and history for it's own sake.

 

[tangomonkey]

I just think that being willing to go into engineering analysis of every pattern, while researching music and dance history is a pretty high hurdle for someone new to tango to be expected to jump. Why not just dance?

There is no expectation, pygmalion. Just dance if that's what you want.

Maybe the "founders" of tango as we know it were into in-depth musical and historical analysis.

Some historical context : A large majority of the immigrants in BsAs were Italian. The Italians have a very rich musical culture, as composers and musicians. I've read their musicianship and skill made a big impact in tango music.

 

[pygmalion]

No offense to you, Anda. And none taken, No one has to say it's expected for it to be (tacitly) expected.

We all approach things from our own angles, which can change over time. Maybe analyzing the heck out of things adds something to the experience for some. That works and is perfectly valid, IMO.

I get the need for analysis. Did that for a living for twenty years. I understand music and music history. Majored in that when I was in school. And watching people argue about esoteric finer points of this or that figure or historical fact is more attractive some times than others.


That doesn't make me incapable of getting it. It means that it doesn't always appeal to me. The dance is beautiful. Period. That culture isn't always beautiful to me. Everybody's entitled to her or his opinion.

 

[tangomonkey]

Im a leader, so may I answer although? Did you ever follow? My first teacher trained us to dance either role. When following, the attention goes into a totally different direction. If not you will not become as good in following as possible. You have to decide which side you are on, where your attention your awareness is going to. I know some women who changed their role, and I noted it long before: they listened to the music as I did and sometimes we got into a very subtile rivalry.


By the way, (beg your pardon) I havent read all of your posts, but till now I was profoundly convinced that you are a leading guy. Are you anyway?

I'm a leader, yes. I have done a little following - took a couple "follower's technique" classes, and learnt to ocho and walk backwards properly and feel the lead. It was very beneficial for my leading

 

[pygmalion]

There is no expectation, pygmalion. Just dance if that's what you want.



Some historical context : A large majority of the immigrants in BsAs were Italian. The Italians have a very rich musical culture, as composers and musicians. I've read their musicianship and skill made a big impact in tango music.

True. And maybe they sat around over glasses of Chianti and argued the finer points of this or that. Been in a few conversations like that, myself. I just think it's presumptuous of us, at this point, to think we understand what happened many years ago.

Music and dance history are both great to understand, to give context. That's fine. And... let's dance rather than argue about dance. :wink:

 

[Zoopsia59]

Interest in the El Choclo thread has been almost exclusively a leader thing. The posts and PM's I get are 99% leaders. A follower's post was highly antagonistic, saying my "discussion was, in my opinion more than a bit cold and calculating." (Maybe she wanted lush, sweeping romantized descriptions instead).

An open question: Why this split?

I can think of several reasons, but I'm only guessing when it comes to follower other than myself. (you know why I don't post there... like we've discussed, I'm a dancer not a musician, and I don't need to break the music down to be aware that a change might be coming, or how long the change might last before returning to the main theme)

It could be that women are more likely to be "dancers" like me and don't feel a need to analyze the music. They feel it and they know what's about to happen because they feel it, not because they study it. (leaders are frequently baffled how I know to be ready to stop for the last note as though I know it is coming... I DO know it's coming even in an unfamiliar piece... although I sometimes get taken by surprise when it continues)

It could be that since followers don't get to decide where to go and what to do to the music, there's no point for them in dissecting the counts and phrases.

It could be that since followers don't have to plan ahead, and in fact should NOT plan ahead, they don't care about what's coming up in the music.

It could be that for the reason above, followers are either more naturally able, or more "trained" at interpreting the music on the fly spontaneously as they hear it.

It could just be that since most followers are women, women generally dance to FEEL something and intellectual analysis seems not only beside the point, but counter-productive. Of course, that's not completely true, because intellectual analysis of the actual dance technique is required in tango, so it's not like we get to avoid it completely.

Those are my thoughts on why followers aren't flocking to your music threads. It would be interesting to note a gender breakdown as well however... are there female leaders participating?

 

[tangomonkey]

True. And maybe they sat around over glasses of Chianti and argued the finer points of this or that. Been in a few conversations like that, myself. I just think it's presumptuous of us, at this point, to think we understand what happened many years ago.

A great deal of what passes for tango history is questionable - more folklore and repeated cliches, really. A real musicologist could separate fact from fiction and trace the development of the music very accurately and in detail - that's their job. And a dance historian could do the same for the dance itself. There may be scholarly books or articles in journals about tango music and dance history in Spanish (which I can't read, another thing on my list get at) but I haven't read much that I consider reliable, in English. (Steve Pastor would know more about this than me.)

I once saw a professional dance troupe dance 17th-18th century court dances, dressed in costume. Courantes, Sarabandes, Gigues, Bourees...Dance historians can bring "dead" dances back to life. It shouldn't be impossible to trace accurately tango's development either.

I'm all for dancing, not arguing. But discussion is entertaining and interesting....

 

[opendoor]

By the way, one of my slogans to scandalise within our tango scene in Hamburg, and to offend tango DJs in particular is:

There are by far much more poor tangos than actually really good ones