Crossing over from ballroom to Tango

[NZ_Guy]

Well, yes, obviously. I'd hope that leaders would think this important in all dance forms, but yes, it's definitely more important in AT.

In ballroom it's safe to assume the the follower will always be on the natural opposite foot (parallel system). Because in AT you have cross system, it's possible that a secret weight change wasn't as secret as you had hoped, or a non-secret weight change wasn't as clear as you intended. In these situations the AT leader needs to be aware of what happened and proceed accordingly. Also it's possible in AT that the follower was doing some embellishments of her own, where you'd again also want to be aware of where her weight is.

Not really - it depends on the movements.

I don't mean individual movements. In the ballroom swing dances (all standard dances excluding ballroom tango), every single step comes with a lot of momentum. They are meant to travel rapidly across a large area. In AT while some movements can have momentum (particularly it seems with vals), the dance as a whole doesn't move with the same forcefulness that ballroom does, at least in a social context.

There are many other differences (posture, for example).

That has to do with the fact that it's a different dance.

There are many differences in posture and other things even within ballroom. Quickstep, waltz and ballroom tango all require a different posture, and technique (also foxtrot, which has the most demanding technique. Waltz and Viennese waltz have similar posture and technique). On top of that there's also ballroom latin (which I don't dance) which has another five dances (the rumba and cha-cha I think have similar posture and technique, but the others are very different).

So, like I said I don't think a ballroom dancer will have much trouble adapting to the various technical differences they'll encounter in AT. Point (1) will be their main stumbling block simply because conceptually (not merely technically) it's different. My Point (2) is also a a conceptual difference for intl. standard dancers (but probably not for latin dancers) but it's not really a stumbling block - more of an opportunity.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I'd also add that one thing that takes some getting used to, for me, is the assertiveness of the arms in AT leading

If you're using your arms to lead in AT, you are definitely doing it wrong.

I often do a "no-hands" exercise for students to get them used to leading without using their arms.

In ballroom there is a signal-execute-follow cycle (the leader signals his instruction, the follower executes it, and the leader follows the follower as she does so).

That's precisely what happens in AT also.

I suspect that many AT followers would find this approach to soft.

Nope, that's exactly correct. I'm not sure how else it's possible to do it, in fact...

For example, when leading a step forwards (for the leader):
1. The leader initiates a move with his chest (well, centre, but let's not get picky)
2. The follower moves her free leg back
3. The leader moves into the space opened up
4. Both transfer weight.

 

[Joe]

<vast oversimplification>
For couples, ballroom posture creates a "Y" shape. AT posture creates an upside-down "Y" shape.
</vast oversimplification>

Actually, ballroom posture is more like your "Y" on top of your upside-down "Y."

Y
λ

 

[NZ_Guy]

If you're using your arms to lead in AT, you are definitely doing it wrong.

I often do a "no-hands" exercise for students to get them used to leading without using their arms.


That's precisely what happens in AT also.


Nope, that's exactly correct. I'm not sure how else it's possible to do it, in fact...

For example, when leading a step forwards (for the leader):
1. The leader initiates a move with his chest (well, centre, but let's not get picky)
2. The follower moves her free leg back
3. The leader moves into the space opened up
4. Both transfer weight.

I don't use my arms to lead. However, I've had some partners and teachers (but not all) request a more secure embrace. I try to oblige, as I believe that partner comfort is paramount in any partner dance. Still, for me personally it takes some getting used to. Ocho cortados come to mind as something some (most?) followers I suspect might not be able to follow too well without arms, even if led by someone more experienced than me.

 

[NZ_Guy]

Actually, ballroom posture is more like your "Y" on top of your upside-down "Y."

Y
λ

Heh, I consider it somewhat of a K, if I have to describe it as a letter. I'd rather not though.

 

[bordertangoman]

well N_ZGuy you seem to be very perceptive about how AT is led and the differences


i think it is a case of adapting some leaders give strong leads some like me are lighter but equally clear in intention, softness could be a varying quality, but 'presence' or chi seems to be a happy medium.

 

[opendoor]

..onsider it somewhat of a K

|< only if one carries such an inflatable paunch..

 

[Dave Bailey]

I don't use my arms to lead. However, I've had some partners and teachers (but not all) request a more secure embrace.

I'm not entirely sure what "more secure" means? (or "assertive arms" for that matter).

One possibility is that you have an open embrace and there's no connection along the length of your right arm with your partner's left arm - but that's just a guess.

Can you clarify what exactly they're trying to get you to do?

 

[Zoopsia59]

I don't use my arms to lead. However, I've had some partners and teachers (but not all) request a more secure embrace. I try to oblige, as I believe that partner comfort is paramount in any partner dance. Still, for me personally it takes some getting used to. Ocho cortados come to mind as something some (most?) followers I suspect might not be able to follow too well without arms, even if led by someone more experienced than me.

Keep in mind that a great deal of what happens with followers develops because of how beginner leaders are leading.

It's common for beginner AT leaders to overuse their arms to "steer". When that happens, beginner followers learn that the leader will move them rather than learn that they should move themselves. Too often, this doesn't get corrected in early classes because the teachers are busy looking at the step they are teaching rather than the proper execution of technique used in the step.

Eventually followers (hopefully, not always) get used to the idea that they should follow the leader's chest/center/core/whatever/dont'-want-to-argue-over-the-term and the leader's arms become superfluous.

However, depending on the level of instruction people are getting and the general habits of the community, plus the style being emphasized, some leaders overuse their arms permanently and some followers never learn to respond to anything else.

As for ocho cortado, in my community, the only leaders who use it much are those who dance primarily close embrace that opens only slightly (usually on the follower's right) for certain moves (if at all). Even the leaders who use it sometimes lead the return to the front cross by leading a front ocho which then pivots so that the pivoting foot is in front. I learned a milonguero style first, so when I am led to pivot on the back foot and draw the front foot to it in a cross, I do that. Some followers don't pick up on that lead.

I'm not sure why Ocho Cortado is so underused here, but maybe it just doesn't have a prominent place in the open embrace alternative style the way it does in a very traditional milonguro style?

 

[bordertangoman]

Re: ocho cortado; i think its alos underused for rhymic reasons; it tends ( and m'lud i use the term with caution) to taught as a double time step, and for that reason I suspect many people find it difficult. it more milonguero communities, an forward ocho returning to a cross without the followers left foor touching the ground is far more common.

There are few dancers who get that level of speed; with one I can dance it as an Ocho-Cortado-Con-Barrida(TM)

maybe we need a brass in trad orchestas thread

'la Calesita se destrozo'

 

[bordertangoman]

wrong b***y thread sorry about that..

 

[Subliminal]

NZ_Guy, it sounds like you're coming at things from a very analytical perspective, which is good imo. But at this stage, I'd be careful about inferring too many general rules. A lot of what you will get may well be personal corrections from your teachers. For example, early on I was told my arms were too restrictive. Then later on, I was told too loose. Eventually I found the happy medium, which turned out to be "snug" enough to support the follower and let her feel secure, but loose (and adjustable) enough to allow her freedom of movement.

Re: Strength of lead. This is entirely dependent on the follower. One of my teachers is so finely tuned you almost just think where she needs to go and she does. More than that and she considers it distracting from the dance. Another follower I know is almost as sensitive, but likes a very strong clear signal anyway.

 

[LoveTango]

...a great deal of what happens with followers develops because of how beginner leaders are leading...

This is why I think beginners should start going to milonga sooner than later, although, sadly, a lot of the milongas are not beginner friendly. I am very fortunate that I got to dance with excellent leaders from the very beginning. I had no clue that I was not yet ready for milonga. Now that I become better dancer, I tried to give it back to beginning leaders.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I'm not sure why Ocho Cortado is so underused here, but maybe it just doesn't have a prominent place in the open embrace alternative style the way it does in a very traditional milonguro style?

I don't use the whole-pattern variant much, but I do use the cut bit (i.e. cut sidestep -> cross) a lot in close embrace to get round corners.

However, there's not a huge amount of difference between that and leading my partner into the forward step of a giro in an anticlockwise direction, which works just as well.

 

[twnkltoz]

The biggest problem I see in BR leaders coming to AT is that they want to hurry up and learn all the patterns so they can catch up to the other dancers. It's painful sometimes.