Crossing over from ballroom to Tango

[tangomonkey]

I don't think I was quite clear. What I mean by in-the-moment is a total lack of planning; perhaps an absence of conscious thought. To me, if the leader so much as thinks, "I will step forward now," even just a nanosecond before he does so, then he is no longer in-the-moment. If he thinks, "Musical accent, boleo," then he is no longer in-the-moment. The difficulty of floorcraft is that a leader thinks something like, "There is a couple directly in front of me and another to my left, so I will have to go in one of these directions instead," and then he is no longer in-the-moment. In my opinion, for a leader to be in-the-moment in the same sense as a follower requires (among others?) either a practically empty floor or reflexive floorcraft - where there are automatic or instinctual reactions when a hindering couple is sensed, not seen. Then the leader is free/safe to be in-the-moment with the music, going only by feel and instinct; no need for conscious thought of where other dancers are in the room.

I like what you are saying and agree, but that is a very high bar to set. I think it's possible to achieve sometimes. Seems more of a goal, an ideal, than a state a leader can maintain throughout a song or tanda, given the average crowded milonga dance floor. There will always be someone who moves unexpectedly into your space from your blind spots, even sometimes making contact. I'm not sure that can be "sensed". "A practically empty" floor would certainly make a difference.

 

[bordertangoman]

I like what you are saying and agree, but that is a very high bar to set. I think it's possible to achieve sometimes. Seems more of a goal, an ideal, than a state a leader can maintain throughout a song or tanda, given the average crowded milonga dance floor. There will always be someone who moves unexpectedly into your space from your blind spots, even sometimes making contact. I'm not sure that can be "sensed". "A practically empty" floor would certainly make a difference.

As part of my "Yoda" tango trainin, i see how long I can dance with my eyes shut before i bump into someone.....

gotta feel the Force....

 

[tangomonkey]

As part of my "Yoda" tango trainin, i see how long I can dance with my eyes shut before i bump into someone.....

gotta feel the Force....

Where can I sign up?

 

[Dave Bailey]

By the way, one of my slogans to scandalise within our tango scene in Hamburg, and to offend tango DJs in particular is:

There are by far much more poor tangos than actually really good ones

Well, of course. As the law goes, 90% of everything is crud.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I think some of the leader's responsibilities can make being in-the-moment more difficult (floorcraft, for example).

I would think that floorcraft would REQUIRE being in the moment, not the reverse. Perhaps ballroom dancers are more predictable on the social dance floor than AT dancers and therefore planning ahead to accomodate floorcraft might work. But planning ahead in AT often results in a last minute change of plan anyway... ie: in the moment.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Originally Posted by Zoopsia59
It would be interesting to note a gender breakdown as well however... are there female leaders participating?

In the beginning I was quite upset and disturbed about all this, especially about the cleaning part. Today I just put up some pressure on the ladies to break down their Everything! to workable sections.

The question I was asking was whether female leaders were participating in the threads on music analysis. But your answer to me is interesting anyway.

 

[bordertangoman]

I would think that floorcraft would REQUIRE being in the moment, not the reverse. Perhaps ballroom dancers are more predictable on the social dance floor than AT dancers and therefore planning ahead to accomodate floorcraft might work. But planning ahead in AT often results in a last minute change of plan anyway... ie: in the moment.

Aikido trained tango dancers are the best..their training is not simply to avoid possible contact from an 'enemy' but to become one with him.

*Footnote; Aikido is an effective martial art, but Tai Chi is superior as it teaches you not be in the same room as your enemy.....

 

[LadyLeader]

As for the music analysis...I don't find it useful when I dance at all. Part of it is having to be in the moment--which is hard enough for me to begin with, much less if I'm trying to fit conscious analysis into the picture.

I work with music in different ways - analyzing (reading analyzes ) is just one and all this is for HEARING more. Basic things for me; for example to hear basic rythm and melody same time - to be AWARE of these two.

Several on DF has told they are doing this kind of analyze at home, me too.

When on pista I use the new level of awareness and hearing as the base for my steps - followers are actually getting happier .....

.... and I must say I envy you and the others knowing all this about music!

 

[bordertangoman]

I think the way music is put together is fascinating.. my first LP was L'Arlesienne by Bizet, and my music teacher explained to me what a fugue was. Must have been about 10 or 11...

 

[tangomonkey]

I would think that floorcraft would REQUIRE being in the moment, not the reverse. Perhaps ballroom dancers are more predictable on the social dance floor than AT dancers and therefore planning ahead to accomodate floorcraft might work. But planning ahead in AT often results in a last minute change of plan anyway... ie: in the moment.

I see two "in the moments" here. An ideal, being lost in the music and the dance, responding intuitively; and the actual practicalities the leader faces negotiating the floor. Followers enjoy the first with hardly any concern about the second - given a good leader who has good floorcraft skills.

 

[Nathan]

I don't think I was quite clear. What I mean by in-the-moment is a total lack of planning; perhaps an absence of conscious thought. To me, if the leader so much as thinks, "I will step forward now," even just a nanosecond before he does so, then he is no longer in-the-moment. If he thinks, "Musical accent, boleo," then he is no longer in-the-moment. The difficulty of floorcraft is that a leader thinks something like, "There is a couple directly in front of me and another to my left, so I will have to go in one of these directions instead," and then he is no longer in-the-moment. In my opinion, for a leader to be in-the-moment in the same sense as a follower requires (among others?) either a practically empty floor or reflexive floorcraft - where there are automatic or instinctual reactions when a hindering couple is sensed, not seen. Then the leader is free/safe to be in-the-moment with the music, going only by feel and instinct; no need for conscious thought of where other dancers are in the room.

That's more or less what I meant. There isn't time in many cases to make a conscious decision about whether or not one wants to walk into another couple's territory. I avoid obstacles on the floor the same way I do at every other time in my life... by instinct! Now, it gets more complicated because people on the floor range from being cooperative to downright menacing, and there are a lot of subtle ways to influence how people behave around you, but overall, it's an intuitive process that's upstream of musical interpretation.

 

[tangomonkey]

...there are a lot of subtle ways to influence how people behave around you, but overall, it's an intuitive process that's upstream of musical interpretation.

I can think of a very unsublte way - frequent high boleos What subtleties do you have in mind?

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I would think that floorcraft would REQUIRE being in the moment, not the reverse. Perhaps ballroom dancers are more predictable on the social dance floor than AT dancers and therefore planning ahead to accomodate floorcraft might work.

I think we're describing "in-the-moment" differently.

But planning ahead in AT often results in a last minute change of plan anyway... ie: in the moment.

Whether a last minute change of plan, or a split-second decision, or just a simple thought, "Now," that means a leader is no longer in-the-moment.

What I'm describing is as tangomonkey said:

a very high bar to set. I think it's possible to achieve sometimes. Seems more of a goal, an ideal, than a state a leader can maintain throughout a song or tanda, given the average crowded milonga dance floor. There will always be someone who moves unexpectedly into your space from your blind spots, even sometimes making contact. I'm not sure that can be "sensed". "A practically empty" floor would certainly make a difference.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

That's more or less what I meant. There isn't time in many cases to make a conscious decision about whether or not one wants to walk into another couple's territory. I avoid obstacles on the floor the same way I do at every other time in my life... by instinct! Now, it gets more complicated because people on the floor range from being cooperative to downright menacing, and there are a lot of subtle ways to influence how people behave around you, but overall, it's an intuitive process that's upstream of musical interpretation.

Hmmm, perhaps I read "luxury" and "requirement" differently.

I think that most beginners/newbies start off with thinking consciously about floorcraft before they can progress to doing so unconsciously.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I like what you are saying and agree, but that is a very high bar to set. I think it's possible to achieve sometimes. Seems more of a goal, an ideal, than a state a leader can maintain throughout a song or tanda, given the average crowded milonga dance floor. There will always be someone who moves unexpectedly into your space from your blind spots, even sometimes making contact. I'm not sure that can be "sensed". "A practically empty" floor would certainly make a difference.

I don't mean to set it as a bar or requirement, but rather just to indicate one of the things that can make it harder for a leader to achieve the same being in-the-moment that a follower experiences.

I posted this in the El Choclo thread. Sums up my views about analysis. Don't think I need to change anything. (well maybe that "tango bliss" bit...):

Yes. Whether we study the music or not, we work towards engraving the structure of the dance, the structure of the music, deep within us so that ultimately we can respond instinctively without thought. I think we are very much in agreement.