Dancing in BsAs makes you a better AT dancer

[Ampster]

In the thread "Rise and fall when walking?," we were talking about technique. Somehow somewhere, someone started the argument that, "Going to BsAs is the only way to learn..." or something to the effect.

It was muddling the technique discussion so, I really think it needs a new thread. The following are excerpts, so to those who have been to BsAs, enlighten us, please. Have at it.

Dave,

Buenos Aires happens to be the only city in which I have danced for the last ten years. I mention the milongas of BsAs for obvious reasons. Anyone who dances tango should visit Buenos Aires and see for themselves. In fact, I talked with a female teacher from London on Sunday who attended the milonga upon my recommendation and commented how friendly a place it is.

As the saying goes, "Don't knock it until you've tried it."

Yeah. I get it. We all get it. In fact, we all got it about 177 posts ago. I still get it.

Now how about actually answering a question on a technical topic, rather than spamming the forum with BsAs adverts?

How's that sound as a concept?

Good grief. You're worse than Barrefly and his daughter.

In the context of learning tango, when there is a question "How to do (better) this or that?" the answer like "Look at the old milongueros, those who have been doing it for ages, quite successfully. Observe how they do it" is a totally legitimate answer. That is how many people who are extremely good at tango learned in the first place.
Why would you consider it spamming?
Oftentimes, I believe, it is the best possible answer to such questions...

Yes Dave B Jan always seems to make reference to BsAs when it comes to tango, that’s where she lives and dances.

After making 4 trips to BsAs and observing the rise and fall the connections looked pretty good to me and everyone seemed to move together.

After traveling to London and attending Negracha it reminded me more of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.

Have you ever been to BsAs and danced at the milongas? If you haven’t I would highly recommend going it’s quite an eye opener.
If you have been I don’t understand some of your comments to Jan.

Dancing in B.A. is the mind opening experience. Although the first week was horrible for me. Everything I ever had learned seemed to be useless and wrong. No woman wanted to dance with me and on the floor I felt like a pinball. Only slowly did I begin to really learn. Therefore, jan’s answer is correct, but cruel to us, who can’t travel for which reason whatsoever.

Dining, talking and dancing with the milongueros I discovered that everyone of them seemed to have honed his individual style and was very proud of it, in a silent content way. When I took a class with one of them, I could hear his name murmured at the tables when passing by, even when he wasn’t at that milonga. The styles were so different and well known among this group, that they could easily identify who studied with whom. Consider this mentality! When everybody else dances with a straight leg, sooner or later someone would try to dance with bend knees and make this his trade mark.

“El Chachafaz”, considered the pinnacle of dance in his days, danced on the same level of height with a bend in the knee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTfwzCBNKAY

and the old timers in 70’s showed a bend and some up and down movement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z219e03AmWg&feature=related

Therefore, it’s not the question, “Going up and down – yes or no ?”, but rather “When going up and down, what will it do to my dance and do I want these results?”.

I don't care to get into analyzing tango to death which happens to be your main interest. I don't understand why you consider my comments to be spam.

I am not advertising the milongas in BsAs. That's where I dance.

You seem content to avoid exposure to tango's roots. That's your choice. You certainly have lots of learn about the culture of tango.

Rise and fall is a British invention by the creators of the International (or Standard) ballroom style used in competitions (Blackpool). What they call tango with all that head shaking bears no resemblance to the original. If you believe, Mr. Bailey, that tango needs a rise and fall, then by all means just do it. You are the authority.

Crikey O'Reilly DB - that was harsh. You don't have to stick someone with a knife to have your name edited out of the Book of Good Deeds - words are just as lethal and produce equal measure. We may not agree with each other and boy have I come under some schtick in the past for my views (but, hey you know me - face-bovvered-face). Jantango has a right to her opinion (no matter how different, bizarre etc.) without the risk of coming under overt abuse. You disagree. Fine. Say why..and move on. And the Barrefly comment was well out of order. Sticking a finger at another's child is downright...well....my south-east London adjectives would not sit well here. Suffice to say, the winds have ears and a very sharp memory to boot. Lest we forget.

So you're saying that answering any technical question can be reduced to "Come and watch the experts in BsAs"?

Why bother having a forum at all, huh?

With respect, no, the question of rise and fall - or any other question for that matter - cannot be answered by watching youtube records of people dancing in BsAs. I am sorry but it's a myth that ALL Argentinians are perfect dancers. It was the shock of my life when on my first visit to BA I had a dance with an elderly porteno, who was not musical at all, whose lead was rough, who held me so tight I could not breathe, who knocked me off balance all the time. This happened at the Lo de Celia, with no obvious tourist in the crowd apart from me. There were other similar incidents, especially at non-touristy milongas. In fact, at a milonga in the Grisel I had such a bad run of dances with 'milongueros' - they all look the part, mind you, - that I left early, very despirited. Travelling thousands of miles for that?!! Sure, a majority of dances i had in BA with milongueros were divine. But about 20 per cent were crap.
To put things in context: I've been to BsAs five times, I went to milongas every day, both touristy and non-touristy.
Back to Jan's advice above: if we just watch uncritically people dancing in BA milongas, how do we know who to take as an example? Some of them seem to change height, some don't.
As for me, I'm with Peaches: don't bounce. Beyond that, do whatever works and looks elegant.

I’ve seen movies of London, pictures, plays you name it but none of it mattered until I set foot on your soil. The chance of being killed while crossing a street because I can’t comprehend cars driving on the “wrong’ side, to take a walk and peruse the quaint shops and not hear a single person speaking the Queens English. And let’s not forget the four-hour bicycle tour in the pouring rain. The highlight of our vacation was“Negracha” and seeing first hand how tango is danced in London.
My point is after 2 short weeks I have a different view of London and my opinion has changed.
Book’s movie’s lectures and forums will not prepare you for the BsAs milongas. It takes being there and dancing there to make you understand what it’s really like. Some day try to go and experience Argentina and all it has to offer including the Tango and you might have a better understanding as to where Jan is coming from.

Very true. There is no substitute for actually going and feeling what it's like firsthand.

However, it's not possible for everyone. And the answer to any and every technical question being "go see how it's done in BsAs" is not a useful answer to the question anyhow. Nor, as I said, is it always possible. Also, seeing it done in BsAs won't answer a technical question any more than seeing it done anywhere else where AT is danced well.

So, when a technical question has been asked, a response other than "go see it done where it originated" is appreciated and would actually be useful.

I don't see how seeing technique applied in context in BsAs is any better than seeing applied in context in, say, London or NYC or Seattle. Good dancing is good dancing, regardless of where it's taking place. Also, as someone else said, watching what is going on is of little help unless you understand what's going on to create the picture. So much of what is seen is illusion.

I would agree if London or NYC or Seattle would be an exact copy of Buenos Aires, which they are not.

You might copy something technically but miss it’s soul. Take all those rules at a milonga for example. Apply them with a traditional german 100% correct attitude and you kill the fun. Apply them with an argentine train of thought and you get an exciting game of tango. You will only get an idea of that argentine mentality once you encounter a bunch off them in action, like in Bs.As.

If you don’t believe me, consider how many german country star do you know, that have never been to Nashville? Or, maybe better, is there any noticeable german western country music at all?

Guys, if you want to discuss BsAs, get your own thread

... and here it is!

 

[Ampster]

Now my position is this, just because you've been there doesn't make anyone any better than those who have never been.

I say this because through the years, I have known, observed leads who have been. Some of their dancing did change. Some made no change, some were marginally better, some even got worse. Those who improved, were already good dancers to begin with.

I have danced with several of ladies who have been there, some spending months there. Some got marginally better, some were the same. Those who did get better, were already good to begin with.

All of them tell of great experiences in Bs As. All of them tell stories of great beef, chorizos, parilladas, late nights, parties, and milongas. A lot of them say that they felt their tango got better. However, their dance improvement developed much, much later in Seattle and/or Portland. Mostly after taking lessons from select teachers who came to Seattle/Portland.

Where's the magic pill?

Apologies for my cynicism but when I hear statements to the aforementioned quotes, and don't see the results despite the rave reviews... It all makes me wonder.

 

[dchester]

Now my position is this, just because you've been there doesn't make anyone any better than those who have never been.

I say this because through the years, I have known, observed leads who have been. Some of their dancing did change. Some made no change, some were marginally better, some even got worse. Those who improved, were already good dancers to begin with.

I have danced with several of ladies who have been there, some spending months there. Some got marginally better, some were the same. Those who did get better, were already good to begin with.

All of them tell of great experiences in Bs As. All of them tell stories of great beef, chorizos, parilladas, late nights, parties, and milongas. A lot of them say that they felt their tango got better. However, their dance improvement developed much, much later in Seattle and/or Portland. Mostly after taking lessons from select teachers who came to Seattle/Portland.

Where's the magic pill?

Apologies for my cynicism but when I hear statements to the aforementioned quotes, and don't see the results despite the rave reviews... It all makes me wonder.

So it sounds like you are saying that good dancers who go there, get better.

 

[Ampster]

So it sounds like you are saying that good dancers who go there, get better.

Yes. But it is not a universal assumption that cannot be based only one syllogism. To do so would make your conclusion skewed and narrow minded. This is because I also know people who are really, really good that and have never been to BsAs.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I don't believe in magic pills. In our community, there are also certain people who spend weeks in Buenos Aires every year, and their dancing does not seem to get any better. (Again, I realize, it is a very subjective matter. If they feel better and are happier about their dancing, no one can really argue with that).

You can take a horse to the water, but you cannot force it to drink. It is an opportunity, not a guarantee.

I see it this way: People who are smart about their learning process keep developing and improving no matter where they are (provided there are at least some reliable sources available to learn from). A trip to Buenos Aires just gives the greater opportunities... for those who can seize them.

 

[hbboogie1]

Now my position is this, just because you've been there doesn't make anyone any better than those who have never been.

I say this because through the years, I have known, observed leads who have been. Some of their dancing did change. Some made no change, some were marginally better, some even got worse. Those who improved, were already good dancers to begin with.

I have danced with several of ladies who have been there, some spending months there. Some got marginally better, some were the same. Those who did get better, were already good to begin with.

All of them tell of great experiences in Bs As. All of them tell stories of great beef, chorizos, parilladas, late nights, parties, and milongas. A lot of them say that they felt their tango got better. However, their dance improvement developed much, much later in Seattle and/or Portland. Mostly after taking lessons from select teachers who came to Seattle/Portland.

Where's the magic pill?

Apologies for my cynicism but when I hear statements to the aforementioned quotes, and don't see the results despite the rave reviews... It all makes me wonder.

Ampster
My quote’s never implied that going to BA would make you a better dancer. What I said was enjoy the whole experience of Argentina.
Have you ever been to BsAs and danced at the milongas? If you haven’t I would highly recommend going it’s quite an eye opener.
Some day try to go and experience Argentina and all it has to offer including the Tango and you might have a better understanding as to where Jan is coming from.
As far as becoming a better dancer after two weeks in BA…ain’t gonna happen. I have a couple of friends that were so so dancers moved to BA and make frequent trips back to Ca. after years they are much improved dancers. Would they have improved that much if they had not made the move? I don’t think so. In BA you have a plethora of teachers to choose from teaching daily for peanuts. People go to tango classes the way you would go to a 24 hour fitness in the US so how could you not improve.
There are so many things you begin to understand the longer you live in BA. Try getting your refrigerator repaired or an air conditioner installed… it’s a different world……ask Jan she knows.
Buenos Aires is a big beautiful city not just a place to dance tango.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Couple returns from Buenos Aires. Practica attendees applaud them (literally).
How bizzare, I think.
Then I spend the rest of the practica being threatened by the woman's elbow (which just happened to be about face level for me) as her husband zig zagged back and forth through the middle of the floor.

Ran into a "old tango friend" whom I hadn't seen for a while. He spent a few months in BA several years ago. My assessment of his "improvment" is that he still looked very stilted in what he was doing rather than having acquired an ease of movement that you might expect from familiarity.
Turns out that he now considers himself be be among the best "leads" in Portland. I think he is quite delusional.
But, the BA experience, which he again cited to me, has certainly grown in importance in his own mind.

If you went around in a country western place telling people that if they wanted to get good at CW dance they had to go to Texas, they might well laugh in your face. But the mystic around Argentine Tango is quite tangible.
(On the other hand, when people come to the US from oversees, they sure go to Texas to experience the West and cowboy culture. Still I wonder if dancers in Europe tell each other they have to go to )
Some of you I'm sure have read enough about the history of tango and may know that at least twice now in the history of the dance, the Argentines become determined to reclaim their dance.

Still, as I have written before, if I make it through the truly adventerous things I plan to do, I will go there. Yes, I will try to experience the milongas. See the city of Buenos Aries, Patagonia, the Northwest district and the Andes (did I get that right?), the pampas... yes indeed. Takes lessons to get better at AT? Not so much.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Dancing in Buenos Aires did make me a better dancer. Not wholly enjoyable, but it did improve me.

Chiefly the knowledge and practice of how to dance small has proven invaluable. Also, my general perspective of the dance was changed. I can appreciate the relative merits of dancing on different continents.

 

[Peaches]

I would like to go back, now that I've got a few years of dancing experience and lessons under my belt. Just for kicks if nothing else. I enjoyed my stay there. For a week, I was able to tolerate being in a city...don't know how, really. Loved the food--fruits and coffee, especially. OMG, the coffee.

For tango...my original teacher is now here in the U.S. Heh. I'd be interested in tracking down the other teacher I had there, and taking some lessons from him now...he had phenomenal exercises and an interesting way of looking at things and teaching. It's rare that I've spent that much time in a dance lesson not dancing, but it was worth it.

 

[Lui]

Well, I’ven spend some time in Argentina, but have never found the time to see the tourist attraction (Tigre delta, visit an Estancia, Iguazú falls), ok I made it to the Rural and visit one historic ship and walked by the Casa Rosada, but that’s it. I never had the opportunity, because I spend all the time taking classes, training, visiting the milongas and shows, meeting with friends and eating beef. That did not do justice to the Argentine culture, but that’s what I came for. Did it make me a good dancer, not really. But it put me on the right track. It still took quite a time to master the information. Many things only made sense month later, when my skill caught up with what I’ve been told. I’m convinced that my experience there are vital for what I do today and that I could have found them nowhere else.

Two years ago my sister spend half a year as a doctor at a public hospital in the quarter Palermo in Bs.As. While we share a lot of common impressions about the city and the Argentine people, she hardly encountered any tango. It was not popular among her colleagues and it was not what she had came for.

Bs.As. will give you only what you are up to claim.

 

[dchester]

So it sounds like you are saying that good dancers who go there, get better.

Yes. But it is not a universal assumption that cannot be based only one syllogism. To do so would make your conclusion skewed and narrow minded. This is because I also know people who are really, really good that and have never been to BsAs.

I'm really hoping you know that smileys indicate the possibility of humor.

If you really are trying to have a serious debate (which didn't occur to me that you were, as I thought starting this thread was some kind of a joke), let me first point out, that I didn't draw any conclusions. I made an observation about what you said.

As for whether going to BsAs helps, all I can say is it did help me. I also think that someone who is driven enough to find a way to make the trek there to improve his/her tango, will find a way to improve anyways. But it did speed up the process for me (not that I'm any expert). You can immerse yourself in a way that is more difficult to do here (but I suspect not impossible). I didn't just dance though, I took lots of lessons, and picked people's brains about various topics as much as they could tolerate me asking questions. I'm still trying to apply everything I've learned, but I'm greatful that my understanding has improved, even if my skills aren't where I'd like them to be.

Of course there is no guarantee that going there will help, just like there are no guarantees about anything else that one might try. It helped me, though.

 

[Mladenac]

I was dancing with a lady who had spent at least 6 months learning tango in BsAs.
She was quite good, but she could not follow cross, maybe her teachers at earlier stages do not completely use body lead and follow.

Dancing in BsAs does not automatically makes better dancer than from the rest of the world.

Whenever there is workshops with professional dancers I attend them besides my regular classes.
Sometimes those workshops suck cause they are too superficially led.
(more on step, less on introductionary technique exercises).

@peaches
I like those workshops without much dancing where body technique and concepts are accentuated.

 

[hbboogie1]

I'm really hoping you know that smileys indicate the possibility of humor.

If you really are trying to have a serious debate (which didn't occur to me that you were, as I thought starting this thread was some kind of a joke), let me first point out, that I didn't draw any conclusions. I made an observation about what you said.

As for whether going to BsAs helps, all I can say is it did help me. I also think that someone who is driven enough to find a way to make the trek there to improve his/her tango, will find a way to improve anyways. But it did speed up the process for me (not that I'm any expert). You can immerse yourself in a way that is more difficult to do here (but I suspect not impossible). I didn't just dance though, I took lots of lessons, and picked people's brains about various topics as much as they could tolerate me asking questions. I'm still trying to apply everything I've learned, but I'm greatful that my understanding has improved, even if my skills aren't where I'd like them to be.

Of course there is no guarantee that going there will help, just like there are no guarantees about anything else that one might try. It helped me, though.

If you haven’t been to Buenos Aires you’re a lousy dancer. Deal with it, stop fooling yourselves into believing that you can tango like a real argentine, you can’t because you’ve never been there. It’s a fact the only good dancers are those of us who have gone and taken a couple of group classes and seen the great dinner shows and uh …….. Shopped in the good stores and bought real tango shoes made in Argentina by real local Argentines.
Now I know what your thinking……just because I’ve never been to Argentina I take lessons from visiting Argentine instructors so that qualifies me to be a good dancer…..Wrong, it doesn’t. Why do you think all those guys come over here to teach you stupid Americans? Because they’re lousy dancers and they can’t make a descent living in Argentina because over there everyone knows they’re bad teachers….duh
Why do you think they teach you all that show crap? In Argentina everyone keeps his or her feet on the floor. If you ever go to Argentina the first thing that would happen is you would get kicked out of the milonga for lousy dancing that you were taught by a bad instructor.
And buying mail order shoes from Argentina doesn’t qualify you to be a good dancer either it qualifies you to be an idiot. Who in their right mind would buy a pair of shoes without trying them on first…geez
Also lots of you claim to be experts in Argentine music and history. The only experts are those of us that have been there… not you… because we’ve seen the city and listened to the music played at real Argentine milongas (dances) for those of you that don’t speak Spanish. Oh yeah the hats…stop wearing those stupid hats to the milongas. In Argentina they don’t wear hats to milongas the just sell them to stupid Americans so they can look like idiots and give them something to laugh at.
I hope this answers the burning question.
Been to Argentina…Expert in all things Argentine.
Never been to Argentina…..you’re an idiot.

 

[dchester]

If you haven’t been to Buenos Aires you’re a lousy dancer. Deal with it, stop fooling yourselves into believing that you can tango like a real argentine, you can’t because you’ve never been there. It’s a fact the only good dancers are those of us who have gone and taken a couple of group classes and seen the great dinner shows and uh …….. Shopped in the good stores and bought real tango shoes made in Argentina by real local Argentines.
Now I know what your thinking……just because I’ve never been to Argentina I take lessons from visiting Argentine instructors so that qualifies me to be a good dancer…..Wrong, it doesn’t. Why do you think all those guys come over here to teach you stupid Americans? Because they’re lousy dancers and they can’t make a descent living in Argentina because over there everyone knows they’re bad teachers….duh
Why do you think they teach you all that show crap? In Argentina everyone keeps his or her feet on the floor. If you ever go to Argentina the first thing that would happen is you would get kicked out of the milonga for lousy dancing that you were taught by a bad instructor.
And buying mail order shoes from Argentina doesn’t qualify you to be a good dancer either it qualifies you to be an idiot. Who in their right mind would buy a pair of shoes without trying them on first…geez
Also lots of you claim to be experts in Argentine music and history. The only experts are those of us that have been there… not you… because we’ve seen the city and listened to the music played at real Argentine milongas (dances) for those of you that don’t speak Spanish. Oh yeah the hats…stop wearing those stupid hats to the milongas. In Argentina they don’t wear hats to milongas the just sell them to stupid Americans so they can look like idiots and give them something to laugh at.
I hope this answers the burning question.
Been to Argentina…Expert in all things Argentine.
Never been to Argentina…..you’re an idiot.

Thanks for spelling it out so eloquently. This is what I have long suspected, so it was nice to have you confirm it. I think we can now consider the matter settled.

Ampster, do you concur?

 

[Mladenac]

So it seems that Chicho frumboli with Juana Sepulveda, Sebastian Arce with Mariana Montes, Fabio Rodriguez with Noelia Hurtado, Federico Naveira with Ines Muzzopappa, Bruno Tombari with Mariangeles Camano, Gustavo Rosas with Gisele Natoli , Damian Essel with Nancy Louzan are losers who teach outside Argentina :uplaugh:

Maybe there are more, but I was at losers' workshops.