Dancing in close embrace... Boobs

[Mario7]

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/18decorations.htm

Here's another look at Ricardo Vidort doing the most difficult disassociation about a third of the way thru this video (he facing camera with window directly behind). Now, shot from the other side and up close, he does a few steps outside parallel left. If one wasn't watching the feet, one would never guess that something 'difficult' was being danced. Again, no sliding here...there is, however, a slightly discernable twist and slight parting of the upper torso...do you agree? And would you call his embrace a 'straight-on' close embrace? ..or even 'Apilado'? thks

 

[Subliminal]

Yeah, the same thing is true for us, too. I wouldn't say it's really a problem, but if you get two girls dancing and both are ample...well, it's just something else to consider. Usually, though, we've figured out how to deal with our boobs by now. Not surprising that you didn't hear it mentioned in a class--it's kind of a delicate subject, and it's rare to hear issues specific to same-gendered partners dancing brought up in a typical class.

For some extreme things I've used the sliding technique. I don't think of separation, however slight, as being necessary...but that's something the leader could be doing and I don't realize it. (Sub, where are you to chime in on this?!?! Oh...right...on vacation. Damn you! ) Usually, though, that sort of separation and sliding doesn't come up as being necessary in apilado, because the steps being done aren't extreme enough to require it. For simple walking outside partner, I've always just used dissociation between my legs and upper body to be able to do it.

HI! I only got a minute so I gotta make this quick.

I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule. Generally, I try disassociation first, then slide or shift as needed. Monica Paz pointed out to me in a class once that apilado doesn't have to be full on front to front. Depending on the broadness of thed leader's chest (and/or belly ) the follower can be slightly sideways. Or if you are walking outside, or leading the follower in a circle walk around you, it is way more comfortable for her to sideways lean a little, so her hips can face away. As always, adjustments are made to the comfort of the partners, and what may work with one person won't work with another. I think when we've danced before Peaches, there has been a little sliding. But it's usually masked in the motion of another step.

One thing my teacher pointed out to me once... there are always small adjustments done to the amount of lean you are in. Even in close with no weight sharing, if the connection is good there are dynamic moments when one's balance is dependent on one's partner.

 

[Subliminal]

Lol. That was supposed to be short! Oops.

 

[plugger]

Thanks to all of you. I was taught to maintain the full-on embrace, as Steve Pastor describes it, in brief outside walks such as a salida followed by stepping back in front of partner, or a salida that goes directly into a cruzada. But if several outside steps are taken, and especially if the dancer's bodies aren't matched well to each other, one of us may have to bend at the waist to accommodate the other.
From the Vidort video, so far as I can tell in the small window, it appears that they maintain a total chest connection. That's something to aim for. I probably should have made clear that I don't usually disengage totally to make a small adjustment, only enough so that the fabrics brush each other lightly. So far, no electrical fires.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Basically, it's an embrace. Dance in the embrace that's comfortable and you won't go too far wrong.

If it's not comfortable, adjust it.

 

[JohnEm]

I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule. Generally, I try disassociation first, then slide or shift as needed. Monica Paz pointed out to me in a class once that apilado doesn't have to be full on front to front. Depending on the broadness of thed leader's chest (and/or belly ) the follower can be slightly sideways. Or if you are walking outside, or leading the follower in a circle walk around you, it is way more comfortable for her to sideways lean a little, so her hips can face away. As always, adjustments are made to the comfort of the partners, and what may work with one person won't work with another. I think when we've danced before Peaches, there has been a little sliding. But it's usually masked in the motion of another step.

Hmm, I've been thinking about this one so I'll start with what I know
from personal experience. Like Mario I too have watched Ricardo Vidort
videos, with some admiration I might say. And like plugger I was taught
to release the hold and slide gently to an offset position to walk outside.

But I don't like it, it's ugly and clunky. And I was taught a similar thing
earlier in ballroom for outside movement in the quickstep and foxtrot
ending up hip to hip. It again is ungainly and leading locksteps entails
a hip displacement (I could be stronger about it). Ballroom has contra
body position and tango has disassociation to solve it so I've come to
the conclusion that such offsetting (or sliding in tango) techniques are
teaching aids to get people used to the idea but ultimately you will see
all good dancers, amateur and professional, use a twisting of the upper
body to maintain connection.

It needs to be learned and requires suppleness of the spine. So some
carrying injuries or damage may never be able to and, yes, we have to
adjust for that or recognise that some movements may not be possible.

Walking outside on the closed side of the embrace is the most difficult
and, speaking as someone who has intentionally developed the technique,
it can take a partner by surprise and she can resist. Often it's not because
a partner cannot but no-one may have done it before. A really good lady
will just follow the chest and allow it to happen.

One thing my teacher pointed out to me once... there are always small adjustments done to the amount of lean you are in. Even in close with no weight sharing, if the connection is good there are dynamic moments when one's balance is dependent on one's partner.

Yes I agree with the adjustments but not so far as balance being dependent
on your partner. In writing it's difficult to judge what you mean and maybe
you are talking about an ever so slight dependency. If I'm ever aware of
my partner's balance being dependent on me, it's already gone wrong unless
I've initiated an off-axis movement which is then the intention of course.

 

[Captain Jep]

Re leader walking on the outside :

Having been a follower in this position - with closed eyes - it felt really uncomfortable. Disorientating. It's not something you'd want to follow for more than one or two steps IMO.

 

[Peaches]

Re leader walking on the outside :

Having been a follower in this position - with closed eyes - it felt really uncomfortable. Disorientating. It's not something you'd want to follow for more than one or two steps IMO.

Eh. I think I'd have to disagree. It doesn't feel particularly different to me. I mean, yeah, there's a difference between OP and straight-on walking...but definitely not a big deal. I kinda like it.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Eh. I think I'd have to disagree. It doesn't feel particularly different to me. I mean, yeah, there's a difference between OP and straight-on walking...but definitely not a big deal. I kinda like it.

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)

As someone who was taught from day 1 that it's my job to stay in front of the leader, not his job to keep me there, its very strange to be prevented from being in front of him and makes it harder to follow. Obviously there are moves where that is intentional for a specific step, but for walking, it's just uncomfortable (psychologically and in terms of "connecting")

 

[Peaches]

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)

Ohhhhh...I hadn't read his post like that. If that's the case, though, then...yeah. Agree. Sorry, CJ.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I was taught a similar thing
earlier in ballroom for outside movement in the quickstep and foxtrot
ending up hip to hip. Ballroom has contra
body position and tango has disassociation to solve it so I've come to
the conclusion that such offsetting (or sliding in tango) techniques are
teaching aids to get people used to the idea but ultimately you will see
all good dancers, amateur and professional, use a twisting of the upper
body to maintain connection.

In my experience, those leaders who are not taught any kind of contra-body or disassociation from the beginning rarely ever "get it" later, even if you do try to show it to them. Once they have made a habit of simply shifting their partner over to the side, they can't change to another method that's actually somewhat harder. I can count on one hand (and have fingers left over) the leaders I've known who were able to break that habit and learn to maintain the original embrace/ connection when walking OP.

So my conclusion is that unless there is a physical impediment to rotating the upper body independently from the lower, it should be taught this way from the beginning. It doesn't take a LOT of disassociation to walk on the follower's right (more on the follower's left)

It also helps if followers learn how to walk backwards while disassociated so that they still travel where they're supposed to instead of diagonally. Followers are often used to having their legs move perpendicular to their shoulders when walking backwards, and if disassociated, they won't be.

I really don't see that many people who have a serious inability to position their body that way. If you look at some of the old milongueros in BA, they are hardly gymnasts. Many (most?) have pot bellies and hardly any defined waist. Yet they manage to maintain a flat-on non changing embrace and still walk OP. I know someone who has a form of arthritis that has fused most of his spine into a single bone. He wouldn't be able to do it. Other than that, I don't think any of the leaders I know CAN'T do it... they just don't. No one corrected it for them early enough for them to avoid making a habit of doing it another way.

 

[Captain Jep]

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)

As someone who was taught from day 1 that it's my job to stay in front of the leader, not his job to keep me there, its very strange to be prevented from being in front of him and makes it harder to follow. Obviously there are moves where that is intentional for a specific step, but for walking, it's just uncomfortable (psychologically and in terms of "connecting")

Yes that's how I felt. Prevented from being in front. The dissociation needs to be quite pronounced to keep connection - otherwise it feels that you're starting to slide off his chest/go side to side.

Does speed matter? The slower the outside walk the better?

Leaders are often taught a sort of "corner step" where you go outside your partner to your right/their left. You then curve round the corner and lead a cross to straighten out.

Otherwise I've done exercises where leaders practice changing from inside to outside. I've never quite understood them. Yes OK it's worth feeling the dissociation. But from a follower perspective I have found it quite disorientating. Again, probably because I want to stay in front :-?

 

[JohnEm]

In my experience, those leaders who are not taught any kind of contra-body or disassociation from the beginning rarely ever "get it" later, even if you do try to show it to them. Once they have made a habit of simply shifting their partner over to the side, they can't change to another method that's actually somewhat harder. I can count on one hand (and have fingers left over) the leaders I've known who were able to break that habit and learn to maintain the original embrace/ connection when walking OP.

So my conclusion is that unless there is a physical impediment to rotating the upper body independently from the lower, it should be taught this way from the beginning. It doesn't take a LOT of disassociation to walk on the follower's right (more on the follower's left)

As someone who was never taught to disassociate for outside position
and hated the resultant awkward dance I am also one the few (according
to your experience) who taught himself first in ballroom and then
mysteriously had to do the same again in Tango. I say mysteriously as
to me disassociation is one of the fundamentals of Tango.

So I totally agree Zoopsia, it should be taught from the start even if
it makes life a little more difficult early on.

It also helps if followers learn how to walk backwards while disassociated so that they still travel where they're supposed to instead of diagonally. Followers are often used to having their legs move perpendicular to their shoulders when walking backwards, and if disassociated, they won't be.

Yes followers should be taught that too as one of the impediments to
walking outside and retaining the chest connection is followers' reticence
to disassociate. I wasn't aware though that not many leaders actually
disassociate so followers resultantly get very little practice.

I really don't see that many people who have a serious inability to position their body that way. If you look at some of the old milongueros in BA, they are hardly gymnasts. Many (most?) have pot bellies and hardly any defined waist. Yet they manage to maintain a flat-on non changing embrace and still walk OP. I know someone who has a form of arthritis that has fused most of his spine into a single bone. He wouldn't be able to do it. Other than that, I don't think any of the leaders I know CAN'T do it... they just don't. No one corrected it for them early enough for them to avoid making a habit of doing it another way.

Fair comment. Though it does require a degree of muscle control and
body awareness for it to become effortlessly natural.

Looking at milonguero video they don't seem to be all equally supple.
Ricardo Vidort was apparently unusual in that he walked outside the
closed side in parallel and not just in cross basic. It is quite possible
to learn to do that gradually by starting in cross basic, increasing
the disassociation and changing from the three track walk (as per Oscar
Casas) to a two track milonguero walk.

And to bring this back on topic. Everyone should learn to do it well
as it also solves the rubbing across the boobs problem or the necessity
to relax the hold to avoid dragging the lady's clothes around her body.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I wasn't aware though that not many leaders actually
disassociate so followers resultantly get very little practice.

I can only speak for my locality.

Though it does require a degree of muscle control and
body awareness for it to become effortlessly natural.

Or one could make the argument that one only has to stop fighting the natural inclination to walk with disassociation of the hips and shoulders. Contra-body is how we normally walk. But for some reason, when people get to tango class, they are trying to DANCE and think that dancing is going to be the opposite of "natural" in every aspect, including walking. (I remember Tete scolding a whole calss to "just WALK!")

The place where it gets unatural is when you step outside your partner's right with your right foot, rotating your shoulders towards your partner (normal contrabody)... so far so good... then the next step gets taken without changing the shoulders which is NOT normal contra-body movement.. that's the step where a lot of people who are trying to get the disassociation get hung up.. they try to swing the shoulders back and that pulls the follower sideways.

uh... topic... boobs... yes I have them. They don't get in my way. Given their size, I doubt they get in anyone else's way either.

 

[JohnEm]

Or one could make the argument that one only has to stop fighting the natural inclination to walk with disassociation of the hips and shoulders. Contra-body is how we normally walk. But for some reason, when people get to tango class, they are trying to DANCE and think that dancing is going to be the opposite of "natural" in every aspect, including walking. (I remember Tete scolding a whole calss to "just WALK!")

My retort always to that comment is there's nothing natural
about walking down a room with a lady planted on your chest
while walking backwards in front of you.

But I understand too that what Tete was trying to achieve would be
to get everyone to move. So many people forget that it is a dance
of movement and Tete sure could fly around a dance floor. Sometimes
it looked as if Sylvia was a fly on a fast moving big cat but in fact when I see
a video of them it's her who was the genius in her ability to keep up with him
sometimes in no hold at all.

The place where it gets unatural is when you step outside your partner's right with your right foot, rotating your shoulders towards your partner (normal contrabody)... so far so good... then the next step gets taken without changing the shoulders which is NOT normal contra-body movement.. that's the step where a lot of people who are trying to get the disassociation get hung up.. they try to swing the shoulders back and that pulls the follower sideways.

I want to avoid an argument over semantics here.
Disassociation in Tango terms surely means that ability
to maintain the chest connection independent of the hip position.

The opposite movement of the shoulders in a normal walk is due to the
counterbalancing swing of the arms. None of that is relevant to tango
though I know of a tango teacher who teaches a stylised walk with
contra movement of the shoulders. Too affected for me I'm afraid.

Ballroom attempts to solve the descriptive problem by having two terms:
contra body position and contra body movement abbreviated to CBP and
CBM. Oh dear, now which is which? Is it CBM, oh no it's CBP this time.
Now I'm utterly confused!