Dancing on the "Wrong side"

[sweavo]

Over on http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12751&page=2 a couple people brought up that they don't like being led on the wrong side of the beat.

For clarity, this means on1 the leader stepping forward on the break step on 5 rather than 1, on ET2 it means the leader stepping forward on the break step on 2 rather than 6.

At least three people on here whose opinions I rate said they found that uncomfortable or wrong in some way. This is really interesting to me because I think there is a phase where this matters more and then matters less again.

I think when you start to learn, you focus on the steps and maybe don't even know where the music is... then later you have the steps down pat and start to listen more to the music. This is the stage at which it becomes upsetting to be led on the wrong side.

Now I think this attachment to the idea of the right and wrong side ties in to these discussions of "westernizing" salsa (I prefer to call it northernising since south america is in the west!) - how important is is what direction you're heading in on a particular bar? For example ET2 and Puerto-rican timings go exactly opposite one another, but both are fun to dance. I think the reason we get upset about dancing on the wrong side is that when a dancer is new it indicates that they don't "get" the music. It's a badge of being inexperienced. At those stages it's not enough to know, you feel you have to show you know.

But when you look at it from a musician's perspective, a bar is only 4 counts long, and you may easily have an odd number of bars in a section. The "pick-up bar" or "bridge" is when the music takes an extra bar, the clave direction reverses, and the dancers are faced with a choice. They can either throw in a freeze or other 4-beat move, and "fix-up" their timing, or they can ignore the bridge and dance through, ending up on the wrong side. For me, this depends on partner, music, and my mood, but usually my partner is the sort to get upset on the wrong side so I fix-up (unless I think the music's gonna swap back real soon)

The more I learn about the music, the less I worry about what count I'm on or what side of the two-bar basic, and the more I express my interpretation of the music in the dancing. The structure is necessary as it's part of the coupling between the partners that makes all the rest of the lead and follow work... but the best followers can feel the moment they are picked up from shinework what count they are being led on, and re-synchronize.

The couple of partners I'm most comfortable with would probably indulge me if I decided a particular song demanded a break on 3, but I've not tried it!

So how about it? Can you see yourself letting go of right and wrong sides of the basic? Do you have opinions about tying it in with the clave? Am I just trying to pretend I know stuff and really covering up for not being able to understand the rhythm at all?

 

[borikensalsero]

In the western world, as little kids we are taught duality, thought the "proper" approach to an event, and above all, once there is a "right", it leaves little space for a "different" approach. Differently maybe argued, but when practiced, the sovereignty of a sole approach sticks out like sore thumb on a duck.

So, we grow up, learn to dance on a given beat, and condition the mind to only listen to the salsa in a specific order, as well as body position during given beats. Now that we have it ingrained that to dance salsa correctly the first step is back on the 1, the secondary approach is simply wrong, and frowned upon. It just doesn't feel right! We think to ourselves! Yet, neglect that we've actually conditioned such sentiments, as well as limited ourselves to a systematic state of dancing. Our actions to dance in a specific direction, and its feelings, prove nothing but the extent of judgment and rule of the mind in everything we see and do. We have unknowingly thought ourselves to feel a certain way, and it will always feel better that way, regardless of what anyone says. The very mind we use to reason is the very trap that makes us think that there is actually a difference between directions, and steps within the beats. If up is up, then up can’t be down. So we think… That underlying rule of duality that dictates our world becomes the rule by which we judge our actions. If this is good, then obviously, that has to be bad. We have no other rules to aid us in a different perspective, so we do the best we can with what we have and see the world trough binoculars that can’t reach as far as we are made to believe.

Once at such state, it takes tons of rule-breaking and collapsed walls to realize that there is no difference in the direction of the dance, less so, how it feels. We'll fight it to no end, it is our nature to first attack that which is different than, seemingly until… correctness.

Then, there will be the good ol’ “it’s a blue print”. Some possibilities of what might be done, we say. But it is a blue print that, as dance floors throughout the world prove, has become all possibilities, and not just some.

The entire debate of on1 vs on2, as well as the directional approach to dance, is simply the very first stage, which all ruling minds must encounter before, if ever, it is figured-out that there is absolutely no difference in feeling, but that which we’ve created by the very use of our wits. Then, and only then can a reasoning mind begin to change that which it has ‘till today, used to reason.

So, in a sense, yes! The thought that direction makes a difference alludes to a lack of knowledge, not of the music, but of our very feelings and that controlling them... If I have two choices, and one of them, we are told, is correct because of how it feels, then it is to reason that what feels best will be the direction taken...

This is a huge argument amongst the ET on2 crowd, it seems to be forgotten that before they started dancing, even before Eddie himself started dancing, the "better" way, was to step forward on the 2 side of the clave, at all times, for the lead. So, how can it now, suddenly feel correct to always step in one direction during a given beat? Trapped minds willing to help but are incapable. Then we are told knoweldge is power, if we can't use it, how in the world can it be power?

 

[Salcero]

In freestyle dancing, I do whatever I want to do. I think in any partner dance, however, there should be some "rules of engagement." Not rules to limit innovation, but rules to provide a frame of reference. The rules don't dictate what is right or wrong, but provide a baseline onto which innovation and extrapolation can occur. That being said, as long as the rule or whatever you want to call it provide a common basis so that both parties can interact effectively I don't see a problem with parameters. Whether we go down and up or up and down shouldn't be a big deal as long as we are both on the same page. In dancing, I think people should always have a free and open mind, especially when you are comfortable with the basics.

As far as On1 and On2 being the same feeling, if that was what was meant, I definately feel different when my body moves differently to different parts of the music. I saw the play Drumstruck over the weekend and it reminded me of the power of the drum. Dancing On2 allows me to feel the tumboa and the funkiness of the drum more. I don' think this is psychosomatic. I'm not saying one style is better than the other; I dance both 1 and 2 fairly effectively.

 

[Sabor]

i'll say just one thing..

if u can lead it well.. do it.. whatever IT is..

 

[borikensalsero]

As far as On1 and On2 being the same feeling, if that was what was meant, I definately feel different when my body moves differently to different parts of the music. I saw the play Drumstruck over the weekend and it reminded me of the power of the drum. Dancing On2 allows me to feel the tumboa and the funkiness of the drum more. I don' think this is psychosomatic. I'm not saying one style is better than the other; I dance both 1 and 2 fairly effectively.

Had it not been a state of mind, then there wouldn't be difference of opinion. A feeling is a feeling, only when judged, it gains meaning. I'm sure all of us here have read quite a few people wondering why the huge debate over dancing on1 vs on2, when to them, it doesn't change the feeling one least bit.

The answer is the mind, if it wasn't for the mind, and how we see things, everything would be exactly the same for everyone. The key to understanding that the mind controls what we see and feel is the encounter of difference of opinion.

If it feels one way to you, but another to someone else, it isn't that the beat is doing anything to your body, rather how you view the interactions of the beats to your body that changes your perspective.

Let's say you fell asleep, the music was on, and then someone asked you if you felt the difference between the one and the two during any of the songs, while in your unconscious state, the person moved your body to those beats. You couldn't answer! Even if the vibrations are felt by your body, your mind isn't present to judge them, hence, vibrations are simply vibrations, what gives them meaning is that which you think of them. Without the mind, there is absolutely no change of perspective. Sound is simply sound, beat is simply a beat...

 

[sweavo]

Blimey! Did I log into alt.philosophy.taoism by mistake?

As an aside: ah, so that's the mysterious "dancing on clave"? I'm gonna try that for a bit, see if I can condition my mind into forming an opinion about it and perceiving some illusions about its merits

I guess the thing that will give is the female will always be emphasing the 3-side, the synchopated, the yin, the feminine... hmmm. but in i-ching numerology I thought yin was 2 and yang was 3...

Oops, back down to earth, that does have interesting implications for the question and answer, the tension and release between the 3 and 2 sides of the clave... That'll add a nice dimension to what goes on in my head while my body's doing the dancing...

 

[amo_dile_que_no]

I've only been dancing salsa about 16 months, so there is a lot that I don't know. I know about the clave and the tumbao, but I'm not consciously picking them out when I'm dancing. The music and the rhythm is really a Gestalt to me. I don't think about it analytically while dancing. I know when I am on rhythm (not necessarily which one ) and when I am not.

I learned on1. I'm working on learning on2 and I have a ways to go yet. But, I cannot feel any difference between the two types. Or if I do, it is so subtle that I would not notice it while on the dance floor. I attributed this to my lack of sophistication in dancing the mambo. Also initially, I was dancing the power2 instead of the ET2, so I thought that was why I wasn't feeling it. But after reading the previous posts, I find that Boriken's take on this seems logical, particularly in light of how we humans perceive feelings. So thanks Boriken I don't feel quite as unsophisticated now. ;-)

After all that, I feel confident enough to say that I don't think it matters which side or bar you are on. The key is that you are insync with your partner and having a good time.

 

[Salcero]

Had it not been a state of mind, then there wouldn't be difference of opinion. A feeling is a feeling, only when judged, it gains meaning. I'm sure all of us here have read quite a few people wondering why the huge debate over dancing on1 vs on2, when to them, it doesn't change the feeling one least bit.

The answer is the mind, if it wasn't for the mind, and how we see things, everything would be exactly the same for everyone. The key to understanding that the mind controls what we see and feel is the encounter of difference of opinion.

If it feels one way to you, but another to someone else, it isn't that the beat is doing anything to your body, rather how you view the interactions of the beats to your body that changes your perspective.

Let's say you fell asleep, the music was on, and then someone asked you if you felt the difference between the one and the two during any of the songs, while in your unconscious state, the person moved your body to those beats. You couldn't answer! Even if the vibrations are felt by your body, your mind isn't present to judge them, hence, vibrations are simply vibrations, what gives them meaning is that which you think of them. Without the mind, there is absolutely no change of perspective. Sound is simply sound, beat is simply a beat...

There are people that "dance" On1 and/or On2 that don't "feel" the music, and we've talked about those people in other threads and how they often just dance patterns instead of being moved by the music. They move to the music instead of letting the music move them.

The feeling I get from music is not something contrived. It is something I grew-up with and started when I could take my first steps and fell down trying to shake my booty as an toddler.

There are people that "dance On2" but don't dance NY On2, which I think is as much a style as what beat you break on. There are a lot of variations and ways to disect music and dance. There are a lot of On1 dancers who watch NY On2 dancers through online videos and so forth and incorporate the NY flavor/style into their dancing On1. For instance, I think Super Mario and Leon Rose from London have done this, to an extent, when they dance On1.

Putting the emphasis on the tumbao as opposed to the first beat feels different to me in the soul more than my mind. In certain cultures, some people can feel the "holy ghost" when they pray and perform certain activities around their beliefs. Other people don't feel anything and are empty in that same spot. Some will argue that the feeling of the HG is just a mental thing. Others will counter that it is a feeling in their soul. I can't speak for how music makes other people feel, I can only testify to the feeling I have in my soul.

 

[africana]

Over on http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12751&page=2 a couple people brought up that they don't like being led on the wrong side of the beat.

For clarity, this means on1 the leader stepping forward on the break step on 5 rather than 1, on ET2 it means the leader stepping forward on the break step on 2 rather than 6.

At least three people on here whose opinions I rate said they found that uncomfortable or wrong in some way. This is really interesting to me because I think there is a phase where this matters more and then matters less again.

I think when you start to learn, you focus on the steps and maybe don't even know where the music is... then later you have the steps down pat and start to listen more to the music. This is the stage at which it becomes upsetting to be led on the wrong side.
Now I think this attachment to the idea of the right and wrong side ties in to these discussions of "westernizing" salsa (I prefer to call it northernising since south america is in the west!) - how important is is what direction you're heading in on a particular bar? For example ET2 and Puerto-rican timings go exactly opposite one another, but both are fun to dance. I think the reason we get upset about dancing on the wrong side is that when a dancer is new it indicates that they don't "get" the music. It's a badge of being inexperienced. At those stages it's not enough to know, you feel you have to show you know.

while it may not be earth shattering to dance on the wrong side, the problem with this is that codification of moves into patterns is not always arbitrary, so that it feels "wrong" not to start certain lead-ins or checks, or turns or whatever, at the start of the 8-count bar. There is a natural rise and fall, start and finish, you can hear it inthe music. Basically the moves should match the phrasing/music in a structural way, it looks better, feels better because that is the context in which most patterns and building blocks (like the CBL) are designed and taught.
Even the PR style 2 dancers (the few I've danced with) seem to have their own "rules" for leading into patterns, ways of breaking up moves, and generally following the structure of the music
Another example is with free spins: regardless of when the lead sets it up, and lets me go, I can HEAR when it's time to stop spinning, whether it's after 1 or 2 or 6 spins
Same thing with short shine sets, understanding the phrasing gives both a framework for communicating when you start/stop certain steps and resume partnering.

So it's not completely arbitrary because most ET2 or LA on1 or PR style 2 dancers are already operating within a code, a series of protocols, if you will...
However, the code can be strectched, because dancers are willing and able to improvise, but again that requires good communication between partners, and skill
The reality is that MOST leads who dance on the wrong side don't know what they're doing, and they will quickly (and ruefully ) self-correct if they can. Also with songs that break alot, and frequently change phrasing (from 2-3 to 3-2, we've discussed this...) the lead will have to 'restart' the basic

But when you look at it from a musician's perspective, a bar is only 4 counts long, and you may easily have an odd number of bars in a section. The "pick-up bar" or "bridge" is when the music takes an extra bar, the clave direction reverses, and the dancers are faced with a choice. They can either throw in a freeze or other 4-beat move, and "fix-up" their timing, or they can ignore the bridge and dance through, ending up on the wrong side. For me, this depends on partner, music, and my mood, but usually my partner is the sort to get upset on the wrong side so I fix-up (unless I think the music's gonna swap back real soon)

The more I learn about the music, the less I worry about what count I'm on or what side of the two-bar basic, and the more I express my interpretation of the music in the dancing. The structure is necessary as it's part of the coupling between the partners that makes all the rest of the lead and follow work... but the best followers can feel the moment they are picked up from shinework what count they are being led on, and re-synchronize.

The couple of partners I'm most comfortable with would probably indulge me if I decided a particular song demanded a break on 3, but I've not tried it!

So how about it? Can you see yourself letting go of right and wrong sides of the basic? Do you have opinions about tying it in with the clave? Am I just trying to pretend I know stuff and really covering up for not being able to understand the rhythm at all?

I'm not great at explaining the aspect from musicians POV cos I'm not a musician but the clave is the structure that undergirds everything else, and it runs over MORE than just a single 4-count
there's 2 on one side, and 3 on the other. Understanding which configuration one is listening to will help you know which side is the beginning and which side is the resolution. We've had several disucssions on this stuff, I suggest a search....I'll try to poke around and dig some up later

So actually the more one learns and understands salsa music (and clave-based rhythms) the more conscious you should be of which side is which, and what feels right to do when, as a dancer

but at the end of the day it's not so earth-shattering

 

[Josh]

I don't like dancing on the "other side" of the phrase. It's not because my mind is limited, or I'm not a "free thinker," or a mindless robot, or because it's ingrained in me to the point of being irreversible. It's because it doesn't vibe with me. It's my preference. In most songs, things in general begin at the beginning of the 8-count phrase and end at the end of the 8-count phrase (a lead vocal line, a backup vocal line, a trumpet, a violin, a flute, or whatever). (And in themselves these help define the phrase). Of course these do overlap phrase boundaries a bit, but in general it stays within the vicinity of the phrase. Yes, salsa music is in 4/4, but there is most definitely phrasing. I was never taught about phrasing with salsa, or any music for that matter--I've always just heard it. I'm not inclined to fight the inclination of my body's general rhythm to the music.

 

[africana]

I can't speak for how music makes other people feel, I can only testify to the feeling I have in my soul.

Amen! testify LOL

 

[borikensalsero]

Putting the emphasis on the tumbao as opposed to the first beat feels different to me in the soul more than my mind.

Indeed, you are consciously riding the percussion, which opens up a can of stuff... it could be said... spiritual, if in that we believe.... However, that happens whether on1 or on2. It is the conscious trigger that you needed to feel that groove.

There are folks that feel that exact groove on1, on3, others without any numbers... they just feel it. It is caused by the lure of percussion, used through thusands of years to conjure more than we believe to exist.

 

[Salcero]

Indeed, you are consciously riding the percussion, which opens up a can of stuff... it could be said... spiritual, if in that we believe.... However, that happens whether on1 or on2. It is the conscious trigger that you needed to feel that groove.

There are folks that feel that exact groove on1, on3, others without any numbers... they just feel it. It is caused by the lure of percussion, used through thusands of years to conjure more than we believe to exist.

Bori, everything goes through the mind unless you are in a coma. I don't know what other people feel, what they say they feel, or what they think they feel. There may be a way to objectively and scientifically determine what people feel when they break on different beats, but I haven't seen the research.

Your conjecture is interesting. As I stated b4, I can only testify to the feeling in MY soul. I was moving to music as a toddler without much analysis of the situation. Today I feel the difference of dancing within the bar as opposed to the emphasis being on the first beat. Perhaps, the combination of the different emphasis and different body positions sends different signals to my brain ... trying to use your analytical framework.

 

[sweavo]

I'm not great at explaining the aspect from musicians POV cos I'm not a musician but the clave is the structure that undergirds everything else, and it runs over MORE than just a single 4-count
there's 2 on one side, and 3 on the other. Understanding which configuration one is listening to will help you know which side is the beginning and which side is the resolution. We've had several disucssions on this stuff, I suggest a search....I'll try to poke around and dig some up later

So actually the more one learns and understands salsa music (and clave-based rhythms) the more conscious you should be of which side is which, and what feels right to do when, as a dancer

but at the end of the day it's not so earth-shattering

heh, indeed it isn't! Just a thought I'd throw out there and see what came back.

It's true the clave phrase takes two bars. The 4 counts to a bar is again a formalism from Europe, not Africa, where the rhythms originate. Part of the excitement about "latin" music is the clash and interplay between the traditions. I've heard Tito Puente count in 1..2..3...4.5... i.e. count the clave instead of the "pulse".

However, if the clave really is that important, the dancers should be dancing to that, not to the melodic structure, which can bridge and reverse the clave. I'm with Josh that the melodies and accents are a stronger pointer to where you want to put the emphasis into the movement. I've heard in the context of ET2 that this is "better" than on1 because the woman's turn starts on the 1, which is where the musical accent often falls... but why should she get all the action? On the 1, my break step falls there, I get the question part of the phrase, she gets the answer. From the melodic perspective on2 is much weaker for me. But oh, on the rhythmic side, the 2 wins hands down...

And power-2? That's a great timing for the old 50s "mambo" stuff like perez prado...

 

[Lucretia]

This is quite fun....after almost exactely two years with Salsa I may find myself dancing "on the other" side more often than previously. At class last Monday a guy corrected me ... I didn't have the faintest idea about my mistake :lol:

Before I always got kind of seasick when I was on the wrong side. I felt really bad and fought to correct myself or my partner. Now I don't seem to mind as much.

But I think I know why I felt seasick. It was not only about what I was used to...I think it was about the calling and responding parts of the salsamusic that (usually???) is 4 beats calling and 4 beats responding/chorus. A 8 beat rythm that follows most salsasteps and patterns. When I was on the wrong side I danced the calling steps at the chorus phrase. And vice versa. (correct me if I'm wrong Boriken ).

I think I found this out when I once meet a latinoguy that had his own way of doing salsa. He was always calling....he never gave me comfort of the responding phase that gives some peace. Very stressy..very hard to follow. But I did manage after the 1235 time

/luc