Sorry... I didn't get the joke.
"Nuevo" music is an evolution of tango, isn't it?
Dancing Tango to Milonga and Vals
- Thread starter Hock Siew
- Start date
"Nuevo" music is an evolution of tango, isn't it?
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
well I'm sorry you didnt get the joke too.
opendoor
Forum Master
Hi chanchan! Not that easy! Is that piece of music really a tango?? Or is it perhaps Milonga? Or does the composer did not knew it, and even left it suspended? The feel is Milonga. the signature is 2/4 as it was usual in the guardia vieja. That doent mean anything. We already wrote here about the feel of 2/4 vs. 4/4 tangos (actually cant find the link). El Africano and the huge number of similar pieces used to be labelled as Tango-Milonga (one word) by the people of that generation. I hate this classification and do not use it, at all.
Concerning the dancing: A minority dances like what we today would call Milonga. The rest is dancing Orillero. And Orillero was the playful variant of Canyengue. So by now we´ve got a three-dimensal field of classification. Do you still want to go further into it?
opendoor
Forum Master
Steve, thought we´ve left that view behind! Historically vals and tango got nothing in common! (Except some steps). We agreed not to promote the word tango-vals any more. Sorry, cannot find the thread, but you´ve taken part!
opendoor
Forum Master
Steve, thought we´ve left that view behind! Historically vals and tango got nothing in common! (Except some steps). We agreed not to promote the word tango-vals any more. Sorry, cannot find the thread, but you´ve taken part!
It is a well known tango. You can find the score on TodoTango.
Of course Pereya knew what he was doing. Here you can find some information about him.
If you listen to D'Arienzo's version you will probably have no doubts that this is a tango.
I cited this video to show that every orchestra can give a different feel to the same piece.
The piece is written as 2/4. The feel (in the video that I cited) is actually 2/4.
The rhytm is clearly the habanera, as usual in tangos before 1920. In fact this piece was written in 1916.
Basically it is milonga with "cortes y quebradas".
Probably Orillero is the best term if we really want to give a name to this style of dance, but this is not the point.
The point is the "feel" of the dance. I hope you admit this feel reflects the feel of the music. Which is, believe it or not, a tango.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
OK. So. If I'm understanding you correctly, your point is that vals, aka tango waltz, is not actually a waltz because it has nothing in common with other waltes. (I assume you mean ballroom waltz?) Is that your point?
IF that is your point, then...are you for real, or are you just trolling? Vals, aka tango waltz, is one of the body of Argentine Tango dances. As such, it uses AT steps and hold and sensibilities. It is danced to AT music in 3/4 or 6/8 (or perhaps 12/8) music that has a feeling of 3, although dancing to "alternative" or "modern" music with a feeling of 3 has been known to happen. It is differentiated from other AT dances (milonga, tango) in the style it is given--as I said before, it tends to be danced with fewer pauses, and the movements are often circular.
Given this definition, of course it does not use other waltz steps or holds or whatever else. It is Argentine Tango, first and foremost. I could just as easily say that other waltzes are not true waltzes, because they have nothing in common with vals. Waltz is just the English word for vals, and we know what vals looks like, and obviously waltzes are not the same thing so they can't be called the same thing. The argument is ridiculous, no matter which direction you're taking the comparison.
Well, if you're going to use Piazzola as an example, there's a reason why a lot of people don't even consider his music to be tango. Just sayin'. That said, I don't hear the 3:3:2 rhythm in those at all. I just don't.
Interesting. You know, I've never noticed the habanera rhythm in those pieces before. To my ear, they are so clearly tango that it just never registered as having that quality. The rhythm is there, in the background, but I've never thought of it as being a central, defining rhythm.
opendoor
Forum Master
Hope you´ve got own ears and own concepts to analyze, too ?!
opendoor
Forum Master
Here is something to read http://simbatango.com/2009/12/19/what-to-listen-for-in-tango/
and something to hear http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=Uxi7WFlQAf0
Right.
Argentine Tango is quite a free and improvised dance: you don't have stuck on a fixed set of figures. Nothing prevents you from taking some sequence copied or inspired to waltz, if you manage to lead and follow it with the technique of Argentine Tango, with improvisation and musicality. But this is not strictly required to dance Tango Vals: dancing Tango Vals doesn't mean mixing Tango and Vals (Waltz).
Almost every country has its style of waltz and obviously I don't know all of them. Most of them, although looking quite different from the original Waltz derived from Waltz, and still have a common basis: similar kind of turns and the same rhythm for the steps (stepping on every beat). In this case, we can say they are styles of waltz, or at least evolutions of waltz. This in not the case of Tango Vals.
Are you really among them?
If you are, you can listen to the second example, which is by Pugliese.
If you don't consider Pugliese's music to be tango, please give me your definition of tango and I'll try to look if I find some 3:3:2.
You probably didn't notice it because most orchestras often hide it.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Ohhh...kaaay...
No, it doesn't. It means dancing Argentine Tango, using the body of AT steps, with AT technique, with AT hold (whichever variety you prefer) to (usually) vals music, hopefully with certain characteristics (more continual movement, more circular movement). Yes, you can take other sequences from your so-called "real waltzes" and merge them into AT; you can blend the two. So what? Vals, as it is understood in this forum, is AT danced to AT vals music, with vals styling. What is the hang-up with this?!
Because it is tango.
Listen, do you even dance AT? Seriously...are you just trolling? Because this is getting rather ridiculous. OK, fine, it's not a real waltz. Who bloody cares? It's tango vals. If you don't like the terminology, fine. Can't help you there, because the rest of the AT community has no problem understanding what vals/tango waltz means--we recognize it, we dance it. (Although who made you the arbiter of what qualifies to be labeled as what is beyond me.)
Shrug. Depends on the piece of music. Some is very tango-able, others are not. IMO, he crossed genres.
I'm not defining squat at this point. I know what tango music is, I don't need to be educated in that regard. I'm not saying 3:3:2 isn't in the second one, I'm saying I don't hear it.
Or, because I don't think of it in that way. Yeah, it's there, but not in the sense that I tend to hear it in milongas. I certainly don't feel it in those pieces--to me, they just have an altogether different feel. Shrug.
Yes.
But if i "feel" that a song is a milonga, and the all best tango musicians agree that it is a tango, then I try to understand the reason why my "feel" failed.
opendoor
Forum Master
Ok, my only concern was that black and white often arent´t the alternatives. And that the so-called "best" appear to be deeply involed (lets say enmeshed) in the power games of fashion and commerce of that time. And by the way, for me argentinians don´t have the interpretational sovereignty in this field.