Dancing With Boa Constrictors - Close Embrace Gone Terribly Wrong

[Me]

I think this is a two-part topic.

1.
I was hoping some dancers here had some tips on how to dance comfortably with a man who squeezes the breath out of you. It can be extremely uncomfortable on the lower back, particularly if he is keeping his weight too far back, or taking long, heavy, or irregular steps. It is also very difficult to avoid being stepped on if he makes a mistake, because I simply have nowhere to go. In short, I am left with a backache and ruined nylons. I push away – He squeezes tighter. Push, pull, push, pull... Tighter, tighter, tighter…

2.
I would also appreciate some advice on how to convince a dancer that Argentine instructors are not infallible, or to at least convince them that they misunderstood their instructors. This is related to the first problem. It seems that several men in this area who have studied from Argentine instructors exhibit absolutely zero change in their dancing, except for an extremely uncomfortable vice-grip coupled with insisting on pressing the sweaty forehead against the woman’s. Any other past bad habits (not being square to the partner, rushing their dancing, weight back into heels, poor balance, etc.) are still present. I have an incredibly difficult time believing all Argentine instructors are going to ignore the needs of each individual man and only teach them to squeeze the women to death.


Thank you for your advice.

 

[opendoor]

... convince them that they misunderstood their instructors..

.. perhaps he hasn´t misunderstood his instructor

And, what helped me a lot: say it right at the beginning, not at the end of the dance.

 

[Ampster]

I think this is a two-part topic.

1.
I was hoping some dancers here had some tips on how to dance comfortably with a man who squeezes the breath out of you. It can be extremely uncomfortable on the lower back, particularly if he is keeping his weight too far back, or taking long, heavy, or irregular steps. It is also very difficult to avoid being stepped on if he makes a mistake, because I simply have nowhere to go. In short, I am left with a backache and ruined nylons. I push away – He squeezes tighter. Push, pull, push, pull... Tighter, tighter, tighter…

2.
I would also appreciate some advice on how to convince a dancer that Argentine instructors are not infallible, or to at least convince them that they misunderstood their instructors. This is related to the first problem. It seems that several men in this area who have studied from Argentine instructors exhibit absolutely zero change in their dancing, except for an extremely uncomfortable vice-grip coupled with insisting on pressing the sweaty forehead against the woman’s. Any other past bad habits (not being square to the partner, rushing their dancing, weight back into heels, poor balance, etc.) are still present. I have an incredibly difficult time believing all Argentine instructors are going to ignore the needs of each individual man and only teach them to squeeze the women to death.


Thank you for your advice.

When I come across boa constrictors in the jungle, I would normally hack their heads off and cook the rest. But I digress... :bouncy:

1)
Stay in open embrace. If it's too late, instead of pushing, try loosening your embrace a s a subtle hint to back-off. or, when he pulls, try a slight "Gasp and ouch!" When all else fails... "THANK YOU, my back is suddenly painful" and clutch your back as you turn around and leave, as a hint. It's an excercise in "Saying it, without saying it."

2)
This is tricky, because now, you have the excellent beginner syndrome. You see this all the time. People think they're really good, even if they're not. It doesn't help if they've taken lessons from some Arg teacher either. Their egos are bigger than their dancing skills.

The only way I've known how to deal with this is to dance with someone who is really good, and who has NOT been with some Arg teacher. People notice and word spreads around. They get the hint in time.

A long term solution to this is to bring in instructors who specialize in technique as opposed to steps and patterns, Argentinean or otherwise.

 

[bastet]

I think this is a two-part topic.

1.
I was hoping some dancers here had some tips on how to dance comfortably with a man who squeezes the breath out of you. It can be extremely uncomfortable on the lower back, particularly if he is keeping his weight too far back, or taking long, heavy, or irregular steps. It is also very difficult to avoid being stepped on if he makes a mistake, because I simply have nowhere to go. In short, I am left with a backache and ruined nylons. I push away – He squeezes tighter. Push, pull, push, pull... Tighter, tighter, tighter…

2.
I would also appreciate some advice on how to convince a dancer that Argentine instructors are not infallible, or to at least convince them that they misunderstood their instructors. This is related to the first problem. It seems that several men in this area who have studied from Argentine instructors exhibit absolutely zero change in their dancing, except for an extremely uncomfortable vice-grip coupled with insisting on pressing the sweaty forehead against the woman’s. Any other past bad habits (not being square to the partner, rushing their dancing, weight back into heels, poor balance, etc.) are still present. I have an incredibly difficult time believing all Argentine instructors are going to ignore the needs of each individual man and only teach them to squeeze the women to death.


Thank you for your advice.

to part one- the suggestion I use is to try to bring yourself up on to your own axis and dance upright, if at all possible. But that is what I do with leads who backweight. Leads who squish I try to avoid dancing with often. You might try the old "my back is injured" routine. Or do not go to close embrace with them. That is another possibility.

I think it is the more experienced partners job to accomodate the embrace. If a lead is backweighted, and you can find a way to bring your torso and pelvis to back in line with each other without disconnecting too much, that's the route I'd try first (you are basically dancing in front of each other as in open but you are still close). Accomodate the arm if you are used to having it all the way accross the shoulder by putting it on the shoulder blade- I have found this facilitates a more non-sharing axis. If that's impossible, I'd go to open.

 

[Peaches]

In reverse order, just because it's easier:

Regarding #2: I think it's a lost cause. An Argentine told them, it must be right. Without individual feedback from someone they respect (and even possibly with it), they're not going to change. Not saying that you're not worthy of respect, but they're coming at it from the starting point of knowing *insert eye roll here* they're in the right and any problem must be yours. I ignore them.

Regarding #1: Good question. I danced with a guy this past weekend who says he loves dancing with me because I connect so strongly with him. And I do. (We'll leave aside, for the moment, that I have to kind of drop other bits of good technique in order to dance with him--he's just pretty short and very round, which makes the connection physically difficult.) He says the most common complaint he hears about his dancing is that he holds too tight with his right arm, something which I have never once experienced. With me, he says he feels like he could keep that arm behind his back, because he knows I'd stay glued to him.

I'm doubting this is your problem, Me. I'm sure you know how to connect and stay with the guy no matter what. But I throw it out there because perhaps pulling away might only exacerbate the problem, but "pushing into him" might help. Just a thought.

Now, if you or anyone has an idea of what to do with the guys who pull closer...and closer...and closer...and closer...while in open embrace, without actually making an attempt to switch to close, I'm all ears. I haven't figured that out yet.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

1) Do not dance with such people in milongas. If you get a partner like that in a practica, gently offer suggestions. If they refuse to listen, excuse yourself from the torture.

2) If the mentioned confused student is your friend, tell in no uncertain terms how dancing with him makes you feel. Suggest that the guy asks his Argentine teachers (or ask him yourself if you can, preferably in front of his students) what milongas in Buenos Aires he had habitually danced at.

Research the teacher in question if you believe his instructions mess a number of people up. Where does he come from? How he arrived in the area, who invited him?

 

[hbboogie1]

I was hoping some dancers here had some tips on how to dance comfortably with a man who squeezes the breath out of you. It can be extremely uncomfortable on the lower back, particularly if he is keeping his weight too far back, or taking long, heavy, or irregular steps. It is also very difficult to avoid being stepped on if he makes a mistake, because I simply have nowhere to go. In short, I am left with a backache and ruined nylons. I push away – He squeezes tighter. Push, pull, push, pull... Tighter, tighter, tighter




I have a lady friend that was having the same problem with a mutual friend. He’s a nice guy but he just didn’t understand he was hurting her so finally she just told him he was holding her too tight and if he wanted to continue dancing with her he was going to need to loosen his grip. She agreed to dance with him again after the conversation and he didn’t loosen up so she stopped on the spot said thank you but no thank you and walked off the floor. The happy ending is the guy woke up and changed his death grip and has become a better dancer and they are still friends. The whole grip thing came directly from a self-proclaimed Argentine instructor that the guy held in high esteem. I see this happening all the time and the best advice is if you don’t agree with what you’re being taught get a second opinion.


I would also appreciate some advice on how to convince a dancer that Argentine instructors are not infallible, or to at least convince them that they misunderstood their instructors.

We all see with different eyes. Someone just posted a couple doing a milonga and stated he saw nothing wrong with his or her skill level. I look at them and see the guy hunching his shoulders during the whole dance jerking his left arm up and down like he’s milking a cow and the both of them constantly looking down at their feet. I also see they have great musicality and balance and they are very entertaining. Would I go to them for lessons? Not in this lifetime. Can I convince the guy that posted the video not to go to them for lessons? Not in this lifetime. Just choose wisely for yourself and enjoy the dance.

 

[dchester]

I think this is a two-part topic.

1.
I was hoping some dancers here had some tips on how to dance comfortably with a man who squeezes the breath out of you. It can be extremely uncomfortable on the lower back, particularly if he is keeping his weight too far back, or taking long, heavy, or irregular steps. It is also very difficult to avoid being stepped on if he makes a mistake, because I simply have nowhere to go. In short, I am left with a backache and ruined nylons. I push away – He squeezes tighter. Push, pull, push, pull... Tighter, tighter, tighter…

You simply have to tell him the embrace is too tight for you. If it can wait until in between songs, that is preferable, but if it is causing you pain, then tell him right away. Most guys want their followers to enjoy dancing with them, so make it clear (plus we're not all that good at picking up on hints).

2.
I would also appreciate some advice on how to convince a dancer that Argentine instructors are not infallible, or to at least convince them that they misunderstood their instructors. This is related to the first problem. It seems that several men in this area who have studied from Argentine instructors exhibit absolutely zero change in their dancing, except for an extremely uncomfortable vice-grip coupled with insisting on pressing the sweaty forehead against the woman’s. Any other past bad habits (not being square to the partner, rushing their dancing, weight back into heels, poor balance, etc.) are still present. I have an incredibly difficult time believing all Argentine instructors are going to ignore the needs of each individual man and only teach them to squeeze the women to death.

Thank you for your advice.

This sounds like a discussion that would be better at a class or practica (rather than at a milonga). However, I would still focus on what you like, rather than what they think the Argentine teacher told them. Some followers like a more firm embrace, while others like a light touch.

BTW, my observation has been that really good American dancers are more likely to prefer the light touch.

 

[Subliminal]

Now, if you or anyone has an idea of what to do with the guys who pull closer...and closer...and closer...and closer...while in open embrace, without actually making an attempt to switch to close, I'm all ears. I haven't figured that out yet.

Heh, I had that problem for a bit, and it definitely wasn't intentional. It was usually because I was overcompensating forward with my chest trying to have the proper forward posture, but not carrying my feet with me as I stepped. And not keeping my right arm dynamic enough didn't help either.

I'm not sure how you'd fix it though without just outright telling someone. Maybe you could backlead them into stepping with more confidence? Or maybe try to subtly loosen their right arm? That is, if it's the same problem and they're not doing something else wrong.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I have 2 suggestions... one is more mature than the other.

1)
The immature kneejerk response I had (which may actually work)
Wrap your left arm around him in the type of embrace that puts his neck in the crook of your elbow.
Pull.
Hard.

Pull him even more towards you than he is already trying to go. Use your arm pulling his neck to keep your connection to him like superglue. (but dont' injure him)

I guarantee he will be trying to pull away from you after a short while of this.

If you can manage putting some serious downward weight on him at the same time you're pulling forward on his neck, he will most definitely want you to start holding yourself up and may even initiate an open embrace.

Ok... that's the drastic passive aggresive approach.

2) The mature way to handle things:
Tell him you want to work on/improve how well you connect to a leader using your own forward pressure and proper technique/posture and that he can be of enourmous help to you in learning to feel this if he would dance with you without using his right arm AT ALL. Tell him you know it isn't his job to keep you with him via the embrace (you already know this, but he obviously needs to be reminded) and so you want to learn to do it without an "embrace".

This is certainly appropriate in a practica setting, and depending on how your milongas are, and the attitudes of people at them, you might be just fine asking for this "help" at a milonga too. Tell him you really thought he would be a good person to work on this with you (making no mention that its really HIM that you're working on) Steel yourself for "helpul criticism" from him as a result, because he probably has no idea how to connect himself without his arms, and will blame you for the resulting lack of connection. Plus he's had those amazing teachers and all....

Addendum
3)
Just don't dance with him anymore.

The one thing that most likely WON'T work is trying to pull away from him. Its like trying to get something away from a cat... the more you pull on it, the harder the cat clings to it. When there's no resistance, the cat sometimes lets go. And if the prey or toy suddenly forces itself closer to the cat, it often retreats. A cat will usually let go of anything in its mouth if that thing starts moving deeper into the cats mouth on its own, whether its your hand, a live mouse, or a toy it almost accidentally swallowed.
Same principle.

 

[hbboogie1]

I have 2 suggestions... one is more mature than the other.

1)
The immature kneejerk response I had (which may actually work)
Wrap your left arm around him in the type of embrace that puts his neck in the crook of your elbow.
Pull.
Hard.

Pull him even more towards you than he is already trying to go. Use your arm pulling his neck to keep your connection to him like superglue. (but dont' injure him)

I guarantee he will be trying to pull away from you after a short while of this.

If you can manage putting some serious downward weight on him at the same time you're pulling forward on his neck, he will most definitely want you to start holding yourself up and may even initiate an open embrace.

Ok... that's the drastic passive aggresive approach.

2) The mature way to handle things:
Tell him you want to work on/improve how well you connect to a leader using your own forward pressure and proper technique/posture and that he can be of enourmous help to you in learning to feel this if he would dance with you without using his right arm AT ALL. Tell him you know it isn't his job to keep you with him via the embrace (you already know this, but he obviously needs to be reminded) and so you want to learn to do it without an "embrace".

This is certainly appropriate in a practica setting, and depending on how your milongas are, and the attitudes of people at them, you might be just fine asking for this "help" at a milonga too. Tell him you really thought he would be a good person to work on this with you (making no mention that its really HIM that you're working on) Steel yourself for "helpul criticism" from him as a result, because he probably has no idea how to connect himself without his arms, and will blame you for the resulting lack of connection. Plus he's had those amazing teachers and all....

Addendum
3)
Just don't dance with him anymore.

The one thing that most likely WON'T work is trying to pull away from him. Its like trying to get something away from a cat... the more you pull on it, the harder the cat clings to it. When there's no resistance, the cat sometimes lets go. And if the prey or toy suddenly forces itself closer to the cat, it often retreats. A cat will usually let go of anything in its mouth if that thing starts moving deeper into the cats mouth on its own, whether its your hand, a live mouse, or a toy it almost accidentally swallowed.
Same principle.

4)
the honest approach

I have a lady friend that was having the same problem with a mutual friend. He’s a nice guy but he just didn’t understand he was hurting her so finally she just told him he was holding her too tight and if he wanted to continue dancing with her he was going to need to loosen his grip. She agreed to dance with him again after the conversation and he didn’t loosen up so she stopped on the spot said thank you but no thank you and walked off the floor. The happy ending is the guy woke up and changed his death grip and has become a better dancer and they are still friends. The whole grip thing came directly from a self-proclaimed Argentine instructor that the guy held in high esteem. I see this happening all the time and the best advice is if you don’t agree with what you’re being taught get a second opinion.

 

[Zoopsia59]

4)
the honest approach

I would normally encourage the honest approach too. But I inferred from the first sentence in her #2 question that these boa constrictors are not open to suggestions regarding their own dancing.

Perhaps she was talking about 2 (or more) different leaders. However, if its that difficult to convince the leader that his instructor isn't God (or that he misunderstood God) then I don't think she will get very far with a direct honest approach. If he feels he was told that is the right way to do it, and she says its painful, I think he'll then try to figure out what SHE'S doing wrong that makes his "correct" embrace uncomfortable.

You could be totally right and I'm wrong.

Or it could be that no one (especially a follower) will be able to tell these guys that there's something wrong with what they are doing. They will have to decide for themselves that it isn't as good as something else by having that something else "sneak up" on them and work out better.

 

[Joe]

Step on his toes. "Oh, I'm so sorry! That must have happened because you're holding me so close to you!"

 

[bastet]

Step on his toes. "Oh, I'm so sorry! That must have happened because you're holding me so close to you!"

hmm...I kind of like that one....but the foot stepping usually comes because of the backweighting. Not necessarily because of the constrictor grip.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Step on his toes. "Oh, I'm so sorry! That must have happened because you're holding me so close to you!"

tee hee... another passive aggressive approach