Dealing with Dance Chauvinism

[pnoisette]

How does one respond to the claim I am frequently hearing (usually from non-American dancers) that those who are not good dancers do American Smooth and Rhythm? The argument is usually buttressed with the fact that so and so--a couple who started off as International dancers and who never won in that category--were able to emerge as top champions as Smooth or Rhythm dancers.

Personally, I don't buy this line of thinking at all but would appreciate some feedback as to how to counter this claim.

 

[TallTenDancer]

It's been my experience that someone who is good at one style is generally good at the other - for instance, I know a couple who dances both American and International Standard/Smooth/Rhythm/Latin, and consistently places well. Contrariwise, I've always done worse in American than International (learned International, never really "learned" American), so no, I don't agree with that line of thinking either.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

The argument is usually buttressed with the fact that so and so--a couple who started off as International dancers and who never won in that category--were able to emerge as top champions as Smooth or Rhythm dancers.

Personally, I don't buy this line of thinking at all but would appreciate some feedback as to how to counter this claim.

Be ready to counter with examples of people who switched from Standard to Smooth thinking it would be easy, and who ended up doing poorly anyway.

Or, just ignore them.

 

[madmaximus]

How does one respond to the claim I am frequently hearing (usually from non-American dancers) that those who are not good dancers do American Smooth and Rhythm? The argument is usually buttressed with the fact that so and so--a couple who started off as International dancers and who never won in that category--were able to emerge as top champions as Smooth or Rhythm dancers.

Personally, I don't buy this line of thinking at all but would appreciate some feedback as to how to counter this claim.

Let's set aside the fact that AS is just as difficult as IS (it requires the same stamina and have similar learning curves, etc...).

1. Well, is the statement true? Generalities based on the performance of a small sample is a poor argument.

2. The couple cited to support the statement have had the advantage of learning a similar style--and as Warren D suggested, what of the other way around?

3. Is it the aspersion on American Style itself or its practitioners that is bothering you?


My retort (being me and me alone, and being on a not-so-combative mode these days) would be to have them prove the statement without citing the specific performance of a couple, but rather a factual research on the quality of the general body of its practitioners (which I believe is just as good as any style).

OTOH, the usual me would say, "huh. I would bet you wouldn't make such an offensive statement if you actually knew what you were talking about...were you just trying to impress that girl?...(guy, teacher, friend...?)"

But that's just me these days... others of a more peaceful bent would probably let it pass.



m

 

[fascination]

oy...where angels fear to tread......my thought is that maybe the appearance of that as a reality has more to do with the fact that often people who have been dancing since they could walk are usually dancers who dance international styles...perhaps those who find themselves struggling in competing because they started later, may find a more fertile area for measuring their skills by switching...but I doubt it...shrug...I do generally subscribe to the fact that if one doesn't have a solid command of standard one cannot be a good smooth dancer...and both of my pros, past and present, one born in the US and one not, both hold that view as well...shrug...I think there are grains of truth to this and there are grains of insult to this...there are many aspects of smooth that not every good standard dancer is able to pull off as well...it just seems less likely for switches to go in the opposite direction...maybe due in part to starting age, etc...just a thought...not a definitive conclusion

 

[toothlesstiger]

I agree with Warren. But it is the standard back and forth between competing forms. "New York Salsa is more authentic than LA Salsa", etc.

It is certainly worthwhile also considering that they may have been on their way up in competitiveness when they made the switch, and that they would have done well if they stayed in standard as well.

Also, International just has a bigger pool of talent. The whole world, as opposed to just the U.S. (do they compete AS in Canada?) It's not whether International or American is more competitive, it's just the size of the pool of competitors. Not just in terms of the pool of raw talent, but in terms of world class competitors to push your dancing up. And that will trickle all the way down from world class, to national, to regional, to local.

And it may be a matter of taste. Just because of the numbers, there likely to be many more judges that started in international and moved to american than the other way around, and will bring with them the aesthetics they developed when dancing international.

 

[Chris Stratton]

To me it is a question of defining the "problem" of dance narrowly or broadly.

 

[DL]

http://www.utdallas.edu/~aria/dance/beyond.html#Community

It is also a good idea to avoid old, tired, and unresolvable arguments, dance-related or otherwise. For example, there is nothing original left to be said (if there ever was any) about the superiority or inferiority of International vs. American style, Swing vs. Jive, Country Western vs. Swing vs. Ballroom, and so on. More often than not, these are questions of taste, people have made up their minds, and will not be swayed by anything that you have to say. Enjoy the dance and the company of your dancing friends; don't put them down.

 

[danceronice]

Some people are better at a particular skill subset. That does not mean that sub-discipline is any harder or easier than any other.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I do generally subscribe to the fact that if one doesn't have a solid command of standard one cannot be a good smooth dancer...

I would agree with that for smooth dancers who also do standard, since standard is very nearly a subset of smooth.

However, there are good smooth dancers that have never danced standard, and thus may be completely unfamiliar with certain standard figures, such as a foxtrot reverse turn with a lady's heel turn.

 

[fascination]

.....my feelings about standard and smooth are well-known...I consider standard a neccessary evil toward doing good smooth...I guess all I am really saying is that it seems, regardless of what a step is called, the elements of doing it well, as well as the elements neccesary in understanding closed dance position, are neccessary for open work

 

[Chris Stratton]

However, there are good smooth dancers that have never danced standard, and thus may be completely unfamiliar with certain standard figures, such as a foxtrot reverse turn with a lady's heel turn.

But there's a good chance they've got an open telemark in there somewhere.

 

[fascination]

....

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Also, International just has a bigger pool of talent. The whole world, as opposed to just the U.S. (do they compete AS in Canada?) It's not whether International or American is more competitive, it's just the size of the pool of competitors. Not just in terms of the pool of raw talent, but in terms of world class competitors to push your dancing up.

This is to some extent true, and is the flip side of the question: it's the reality that many American style dancers are unwilling to face.

And that will trickle all the way down from world class, to national, to regional, to local.

This part is not true. In areas where American is more common than International, the best American style dancers are often better than the best International style dancers.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I consider standard a neccessary evil toward doing good smooth...I guess all I am really saying is that it seems, regardless of what a step is called, the elements of doing it well, as well as the elements neccesary in understanding closed dance position, are neccessary for open work

I agree the elements of dancing well are the same. There's no reason why those elements can't be taught purely using American style, though.