Deconstructing a couple of "common sense" truths about AT

[JohnEm]

Sounds like we are discussing the difference between pressing and leaning. I think there is a clear distinction. Yes, I can stand very close to a wall and press against it, but I don't think that is leaning. I think leaning implies a shared balance, which means I am not in full control of my own balance, regardless of how quickly I can recover it.

I've had many lessons with Susana Miller, and believe me, we were leaning together. I don't mean leaning "on" each other. We were leaning "toward" each other, and sharing our balance. And, yes, I adore this type of connection, because it is so subtle and intimate. When I dance this way, which is as often as possible, I can feel every tiny movement my partner makes (or doesn't), and she can feel mine.

Oh I think we are splitting hairs here - let's not start trying to verbally trip each other up.

Yes I move my partner's weight but that happens in open hold too. Each partner has to control their own balance, how else does a follower instinctively know where to put her foot - it follows the demands of maintaining her balance. She remains in charge of her own weight unless and until I move her body to change her weighted leg, but that just means she is effectively establishing a new axis. I don't do that, she does.

But fundamentally you know the feeling. The question is - can we convert more people to dancing that way so they really can find out what is inside Tango.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Zoopsia, we'll go round in circles here.
I'm not going to try and analyse this to death.

But I wish everyone would stop contending that weight is shared, it isn't but reflected back and balance management is each partner's job within the dynamics of the dance.

I don't think we have to go round in circles.. we just have to agree to disagree.

and BTW, my post about the reality of people being dependent on the tactile sensation of having a partner there was not to "decide" the debate of what is "apilado"... It was meant as a reality check on the issue of balance in general... you can be on balance and still need the sensation of touching something to STAY on balance. That doesn't mean you are "not in control" any more than it means using your inner ear fluid as a factor in balancing means you aren't in control. I've done exercises many times in workshops where people struggled but if you allowed them to have a LIGHT TOUCH on their partner (fingertips only) they balanced better. One can hardly call that "leaning". Its a reference point only. Just like being able to SEE where they are.

But back to topic.. It IS possible to dance with shared weight and some people do so. That's just a fact. Whether or not you think it is a "correct" way doesn't change the fact, nor does it change the fact that other people may consider it one possible correct way.

So now we're back to defining the terms and that again assumes that there is a consensus about the definitions. Clearly there isn't.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Sounds like we are discussing the difference between pressing and leaning. I think there is a clear distinction. Yes, I can stand very close to a wall and press against it, but I don't think that is leaning. I think leaning implies a shared balance, which means I am not in full control of my own balance, regardless of how quickly I can recover it.

I agree that there is a difference between pressing and leaning. And I think the issue of control is coming down to semantics...

IMO saying you can recover implies that you have some "control" even if you are sharing balance. Otherwise you couldn't recover. But for you the word control means that you don't have it in that instant, but you can regain it.

I'm cool with that. We're talking about split second timing as well as a huge spectrum of how much is required physically to "recover". Sometimes, the effort to recover is so enormous that it disrupts the dance and sometimes it's barely noticeable even by the person who is recovering.

I'm also stating for the record, that you can dance leaning and sharing weight and that it is not "wrong" to dance that style.

But whether this is the proper definition of apilado, I really don't care anymore.

Personally, when I teach, I don't just throw out a word and hope everyone knows what it means or has a universal definition. I expand on it to make sure my meaning is clear. I think the basic concept behind this thread (or maybe its another one.. they all seem alike right now!) is that promoters should do a better job of describing what they expect a class or workshop to be. Just using a term isn't enough.

However many promoters whose events I have attended DO give good descriptions of their events. They don't just put out a notice saying "Lessons in Tango Apilado" or "An advanced workshop in traditional tango".. there's usually a whole paragraph of further description.

Are there really events being publicized with such terse course descriptions??

 

[opendoor]

ecological tango niche

... well Detlef in particular... he has changed his style from bending his legs to being straight so...

...well, I put it down to the fact that suddenly a "niche" was free (I mean Geraldine & Javier )

cheers

 

[dchester]

I'm also stating for the record, that you can dance leaning and sharing weight and that it is not "wrong" to dance that style.

BTW, that's my favorite style (with the right song, of course), just in case we ever meet up at a milonga.

:friend:

 

[Zoopsia59]

BTW, that's my favorite style (with the right song, of course), just in case we ever meet up at a milonga.

:friend:

I'm curious and I don't mean this to sound insulting... but you are a fairly large guy (and your wife appears quite petite)

So do you actually SHARE weight as in.. you BOTH are counterbalancing one another? OR do you take some of her weight only? I can imagine a scenario (and I'm pretty sure I've danced it) where I am leaning enough that I would fall if the guy wasn't there, but even though he may be pressing more towards me as a result, he is not actually going to fall if I duck out. This would occur in the event of a big size discrepancy.

As an extreme example, obviously when you lean on a wall, the wall doesn't need to lean on you to stay there... you just aren't a significant enough weight in relation to the wall. So a smaller partner can be relying on the bigger partner to avoid falling even if the larger partner is not relying on the smaller partner, yes?

I experienced this in a workshop where a leader took a smaller step than I anticipated for my back reach, which resulted in me having to choose between breaking our connection or leaning on him as the step resolved. The teacher giving the exercise applauded us saying we looked perfect. I mentioned my mistake and both the teach AND the leader were surprised because they were unaware of it. The teacher said he couldn't see that I was now leaning on the leader, and the leader (who was taller and bulkier) said he didn't feel it.

But I knew it! I knew I would fall if he weren't there.. I just didn't weight enough in relation to him for it to feel that different for him.

So that brings up another issue for the whole "leaning" thing... When a small follower leans on a large leader...

 

[Zoopsia59]

BTW, that's my favorite style (with the right song, of course), just in case we ever meet up at a milonga.

:friend:

Oh, and BTW - I like it too... its so much easier to keep my feet out of the way!

 

[Steve Pastor]

Not sure when or even IF I posted this previously.
I'm believe my last post in the Apilado Equation thread was an attempt at explaining that this is a simplified model of two human bodies in contact. Models, almost by necessity represent as subset, or simplified version of reality. Because, reality is complicated.
Don't know what happened to the qualifiers???

Perhaps some of you may role your eyes as I play the Dance Geek, with the calculator, spreadsheet, and all, but here goes...


If you google images for "susana miller apilado", you find what I think is a nice picture of exactly that. She appears to be "leaning on" the man, is what most people would conclude.
Actually, the amount of weight she has "on" or toward him, is exactly the same as thh amount of weight he has "on" or towards her.
He, however, does not have to lean as much as her to put the same weight towards her. (Assumptions and qualifies later)


If she is at an angle of 30.7 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 25 degrees.


If she is at an angle of 45 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 36.4 degrees.


When apilado dances move together, they make adjustments to keep the the respective "forward weights" balanced.

 

[JohnEm]

If you google images for "susana miller apilado", you find what I think is a nice picture of exactly that. She appears to be "leaning on" the man, is what most people would conclude.
Actually, the amount of weight she has "on" or toward him, is exactly the same as thh amount of weight he has "on" or towards her.
He, however, does not have to lean as much as her to put the same weight towards her. (Assumptions and qualifies later)


If she is at an angle of 30.7 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 25 degrees.


If she is at an angle of 45 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 36.4 degrees.


When apilado dances move together, they make adjustments to keep the the respective "forward weights" balanced.

Hooray! At last a different explanation of apilado with which I can agree. Not that it matters, the connection's the thing.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Thank goodness there are calculators now a days and I didn't have to resort to trig tables, etc.

 

[borisvian13]

What I can tell you is that each partner has to be in control of their own balance or many movements, taspies and the like cannot happen.
The walk can happen it's true but it becomes a horrible feeling.

Not only that, each partner has to be in control of their own weight and manage their own bodies. Again I can walk round in a lean (but not much of one) with a partner hanging on me, but one dance only like that thanks.

I totally agree. In this and in other posts JohnEm is expressing exactly the same thing I'm saying, but using the mainstream (inadequate!) terminology so that he has some chances (still slim, of course) to be understood.
So, JohnEm you have my blessings. Good luck!

 

[dchester]

I'm curious and I don't mean this to sound insulting... but you are a fairly large guy (and your wife appears quite petite)

I'm not at all insulted, my wife is quite petite.

So do you actually SHARE weight as in.. you BOTH are counterbalancing one another? OR do you take some of her weight only?

Actually, both of these are true. I have to match the force that she exerts on me, an she must match what I exert on her. So the force we exert on each other (which could be measured in pounds) is equal. It is not all of her weight however, but just some of it, (and due to my size, I'm capable of comfortably supporting a lot more weight than what she does give to me).

I can imagine a scenario (and I'm pretty sure I've danced it) where I am leaning enough that I would fall if the guy wasn't there, but even though he may be pressing more towards me as a result, he is not actually going to fall if I duck out. This would occur in the event of a big size discrepancy.

As an extreme example, obviously when you lean on a wall, the wall doesn't need to lean on you to stay there... you just aren't a significant enough weight in relation to the wall. So a smaller partner can be relying on the bigger partner to avoid falling even if the larger partner is not relying on the smaller partner, yes?

Yes, I agree. BTW, there was one follower (quite good, BTW) who told me that she thought my weight actually helped my dance.

I experienced this in a workshop where a leader took a smaller step than I anticipated for my back reach, which resulted in me having to choose between breaking our connection or leaning on him as the step resolved. The teacher giving the exercise applauded us saying we looked perfect. I mentioned my mistake and both the teach AND the leader were surprised because they were unaware of it. The teacher said he couldn't see that I was now leaning on the leader, and the leader (who was taller and bulkier) said he didn't feel it.

But I knew it! I knew I would fall if he weren't there.. I just didn't weight enough in relation to him for it to feel that different for him.

So that brings up another issue for the whole "leaning" thing... When a small follower leans on a large leader...

This being on your own axis thing is often just a personal preference, IMO. It's usually not a problem for the leader to provide some support for a smaller follower, but the leader just needs to make sure he's not overwhelming the follower.

 

[plugger]

"And, despite all the discussions, no matter what the extent of the lean the individual dancers have to remain in control of their own balance for totally practical reasons."

"John, would you explain how you can be leaning against something and in control of your own balance at the same time?"

Consider two statues (a milonguero and milonguera) on motorized pedestals, each leaning toward the other but quite stable standing by itself. Each has its own axis (head through feet) and its own center of gravity (forward of the feet but not forward of the upper body). The music begins and the leader statue motors forward as the follower statue motors backward, but under less power than the leader. The result is compression of chest against chest, the amount of compression depending on the difference in power from their motors. This compression might feel like "shared weight" if statues could feel, but if the leader stops abruptly neither statue falls over.

Not all milonguero teachers insist that partners lean in until each depends on the other for balance. Mine teaches that the important thing is to have a good forward connection in which the follower does not pull downward on the leader ("Be up!")and the leader does not lean over the follower, forcing her to bend her back painfully to connect with his chest ("Stand up!"). Shared weight (if that's the right term) is needed in carpa, volcadas, etc., but not for walking.
I'm not arguing it's wrong -- sharing weight may be a perfectly good way to dance the style -- just saying it isn't a necessary condition for having both a nice body lean and a good chest connection.