Deconstructing a couple of "common sense" truths about AT

[JohnEm]

Good, now a very short post:

C) implies A).
D) implies B).

The proof is left to the reader as an exercise

As I've posted on this thread agreeing to statements C and D, your implications can't pass by uncommented.

A) is just plain wrong for all the reasons posted on other threads

B) you try dancing Tango, or any other dance while being firm on your feet! Take a photograph yes, dance no. Being balanced on one leg/foot and able to maintain your own individual balance throughout the dance, now that is important.

Too much woolly thinking and fallacious deductions for me, I'm tired of it. There are some basic principles to be perfected in Tango to be successful and deconstructing it erroneously in this way won't help anyone to perfect it.

 

[bordertangoman]

So everybody is out there to find the exact, everlasting and exclusive description of the true archetypes of styles?

Well, before you try to catch a pitch-black cat in a pitch-dark room, you might want to check if that beast is even in there.

an you might need a Riddick with you in case the cat isnt a cat

 

[Angel HI]

Too much woolly thinking and fallacious deductions for me, I'm tired of it. There are some basic principles to be perfected in Tango to be successful and deconstructing it erroneously in this way won't help anyone to perfect it.

True, and which is why I have refrained.

 

[Zoopsia59]

So everybody is out there to find the exact, everlasting and exclusive description of the true archetypes of styles?

Well, before you try to catch a pitch-black cat in a pitch-dark room, you might want to check if that beast is even in there.

Of course, the only way to know if the cat is in the room or out of the room is to open the door, at which point you've affected the outcome because the cat will most definitely LEAVE the room (if it was ever in there to begin with)

So goes Juan-Carlos Schrodinjose's Law of Tango.

Since this thread is sounding way to much like a multiple choice quiz and I hate tests, I'm not even gonna open the door!

 

[tangotime]

Howver, Salon, as far as I understand the term, doesn't really have anything to do with saloons, but came about as tango began being danced in larger halls (Salons)


.

As an historical viewpoint, the word " salon " was used to denote a venue that was used for the purpose of dance, be it Tango in Arg. or , Rumba in Cuba. In fact they were called " dance salons ".

Some Dance Studios in the distant past, started to use this nomenclature to describe their establishment .

 

[tangotime]

True, and which is why I have refrained.

Me too..

 

[opendoor]

Re: Salonado

..Is this dance of Detlef and Malina in the same classification...

Ah, Melina & Detlef!
The landing and departing on the straight leg, the straight but leaning in posture of both partners plus Detlef's embrace of Melina in the line with the connection (not lower down towards the waist) are all apilado. The degree of lean can change ....

Hi JohnEm, I do agree, but I find it interesting, because Melina and Detlef usually are known for their refined Salón style ;-) May I add another criterion: the position of the temple: Apilado =right2right; Salón = right2left.

Regards
OD

 

[JohnEm]

We have a new description - "Salonado"!

Hi JohnEm, I do agree, but I find it interesting, because Melina and Detlef usually are known for their refined Salón style ;-) May I add another criterion: the position of the temple: Apilado =right2right; Salón = right2left.

Regards
OD

Thanks & regards to you OD.

You say it's Salon, I say it's apilado, I say tomarto and you say tomayto! Same difference.

If you see a lean inwards of both partners making space for the feet, connecting definitively at the chest, no hingeing at the waist so it's like two human planks (or as near as you can get) leaning on each other, that's apilado. It's wrong in my view to think of apilado as an extreme lean, the extent of the lean depends on the fitness, tone and balance control of the partnership at the time. And, despite all the discussions, no matter what the extent of the lean the individual dancers have to remain in control of their own balance for totally practical reasons.

And Salon apparently can be apilado yet break out of the embrace into more open moves. Some people say it's an elegant form but Argentinians don't really recognise these divisions in the way we seem to. After all the term milonguero style was invented for students to describe the dance form in central BsAs but the milongueros that get the attention are usually apilado dancers, see videos of Ricardo Vidort for instance.

It's all my preferred sort of Tango - I'd better stop that one right here!

Salon is not defined by a right to left temple connection, salon in my experience is also right to right. However apilado is compromised by a right to left temple or cheek orientation (ie ladies head turned to her right). Personally I don't like it, head position (and movement) has a significant influence on connection, movement and balance in any dance and right to right temples in tango starts to break apart the connection twisting the bodies away on the open side towards a Vee configuration.

I really have to be careful here as we're talking about two respected and well known teachers. Detlef and Melina are interesting, well Detlef in particular. Comparing 2005 and 2009 videos he has changed his style from bending his legs to being straight so it's intriguing to see a teacher's own dance evolving over time. There is a video on YouTube in French (Melina & Detlef - basiques du Tango - français) where he even demonstrates bending legs which in my view changes and dips the lead from the torso. Worse it destroys the cadence of the dance, the solidity of the connection and removes some of the assurance and information for the lady and so I'm glad to see that change. He's clearly always had superb posture though.

 

[AndaBien]

..If you see a lean inwards of both partners ... like two human planks (or as near as you can get) leaning on each other, that's apilado.

And, despite all the discussions, no matter what the extent of the lean the individual dancers have to remain in control of their own balance for totally practical reasons.

John, would you explain how you can be leaning against something and in control of your own balance at the same time?

I think that if I lean against some thing or person, by definition I have given up control of my balance. Certainly, I can regain control in a moment, but not while I'm still leaning.

 

[Zoopsia59]

John, would you explain how you can be leaning against something and in control of your own balance at the same time?

I think that if I lean against some thing or person, by definition I have given up control of my balance. Certainly, I can regain control in a moment, but not while I'm still leaning.

I think there is a difference between being "on balance" and being "in control of your balance". If I lean heavily on a wall, I am no longer balancing completely on my own, but I have the ability to regain my balance quite easily.

 

[JohnEm]

I think there is a difference between being "on balance" and being "in control of your balance". If I lean heavily on a wall, I am no longer balancing completely on my own, but I have the ability to regain my balance quite easily.

Zoopsia you've described it well and succinctly.

So AndaBien, try this. Lean against the edge of an open door (Open Door will like this!) with your chest in contact only, shoulders back etc, tall and toned.

You'll find that you can control the amount of pressure on the door by adjusting your angle. If you have the body strength, leg ankle and feet muscles you can control your body - the door is counter-weighting you instead of your partner, but you can easily recover in and out of contact with the door. The point is that to be able to move you must be in control of your body as movement/walking is dynamic and destabilises the connection and both partners have to be able to manage their bodies and the connection together.

By increasing the lean you'll find an angle from which you cannot pull back - you really will be imposing some of your weight but that will be a lean too far. And by the way, you can't push with your chest off the door to recover, imagine what your partner would feel. But on the other hand as a leader you can tip almost beyond the sensible point into starting a walk and use the dynamics of that initial impulse and the opposite reaction from your partner to recover.

This is very difficult to describe in writing, you need to feel it.
It's unique to AT as far as I know and for me is the ultimate Tango.

 

[Zoopsia59]

(tried to add to my previous post, but it wouldn't let me, so I had to make another one)

John, would you explain how you can be leaning against something and in control of your own balance at the same time?

I think that if I lean against some thing or person, by definition I have given up control of my balance. Certainly, I can regain control in a moment, but not while I'm still leaning.

I think there is a difference between being "on balance" and being "in control of your balance". If I lean heavily on a wall, I am no longer balancing completely on my own, but I have the ability to regain my balance quite easily, so I have control.

So I actually disagree with the statement that apilado can never be a shared balance. (If 2 people want to dance that way, they can)

I agree that the couple (and the people that make up the couple) have control of their balance even if they are sharing weight and dependent on each other to avoid falling over while weight is shared.

I also think that in reality (as opposed to theory), even when they aren't trying to share weight, people are likely to have at least MOMENTS during the dance when they really rely on the other for balance and that this happens more than people think it does. It is just the reality of one of the ways humans find and maintain balance... a tactile reference to an object outside ourselves.

We also use sight, our innner ear equilibrium and the sensations beign sent to our brain from the part of us in contact with the floor (hopefully our foot) which is another example of tactile reference to something outside ourselves.

Its much harder to balance with your eyes closed. Its very hard to balance if your whole leg is numb. Its harder to balance with a cold messing with the fluid and air in your skull.

And its easier to balance if you have TWO tactile reference points... one at the floor and one higher up. Even a very light touch (no pressure or weight) can help you stay on balance. (Ballet dancers at the barre find this out pretty quickly)

Because you are moving when you dance tango, the need for this contact and the amount of it varies. That's the reality. Yes we all want to think we are "on our own balance" and have total control of it completely independent of our partner. But the truth is that only VERY advanced dancers do. Most of us actually do use our partner for balance to some extent. This can be noticable to the partner or not depending on how dependent we are and on how much difference there is in the size and bulk of the 2 people.

The GOAL is to be in total control of our own balance ALWAYS and to never need the other person to achieve it except when the dance is deliberately sharing weight (but I'd argue that there is still control).

The reality is that few recreational dancers are capable of that, and its better to recognize and accept that fact, especially if you are trying to teach them to dance.

 

[Subliminal]

So having read this whole damned thread, I have not found anything to convince me that btm didn't have the best and simplest definition back in the other thread.

Apilado is when your center of gravity is forward past your toes.

Simple. To the point. We don't even have to use the axis word, or snarx if you prefer.

 

[AndaBien]

...So AndaBien, try this. Lean against the edge of an open door (Open Door will like this!) with your chest in contact only, shoulders back etc, tall and toned.

You'll find that you can control the amount of pressure on the door by adjusting your angle. If you have the body strength, leg ankle and feet muscles you can control your body - the door is counter-weighting you instead of your partner, but you can easily recover in and out of contact with the door. The point is that to be able to move you must be in control of your body as movement/walking is dynamic and destabilises the connection and both partners have to be able to manage their bodies and the connection together.

By increasing the lean you'll find an angle from which you cannot pull back - you really will be imposing some of your weight but that will be a lean too far. And by the way, you can't push with your chest off the door to recover, imagine what your partner would feel. But on the other hand as a leader you can tip almost beyond the sensible point into starting a walk and use the dynamics of that initial impulse and the opposite reaction from your partner to recover.

This is very difficult to describe in writing, you need to feel it.
It's unique to AT as far as I know and for me is the ultimate Tango.

Sounds like we are discussing the difference between pressing and leaning. I think there is a clear distinction. Yes, I can stand very close to a wall and press against it, but I don't think that is leaning. I think leaning implies a shared balance, which means I am not in full control of my own balance, regardless of how quickly I can recover it.

I've had many lessons with Susana Miller, and believe me, we were leaning together. I don't mean leaning "on" each other. We were leaning "toward" each other, and sharing our balance. And, yes, I adore this type of connection, because it is so subtle and intimate. When I dance this way, which is as often as possible, I can feel every tiny movement my partner makes (or doesn't), and she can feel mine.

 

[JohnEm]

Zoopsia, we'll go round in circles here.
I'm not going to try and analyse this to death.

What I can tell you is that each partner has to be in control of their own balance or many movements, taspies and the like cannot happen.
The walk can happen it's true but it becomes a horrible feeling.

Not only that, each partner has to be in control of their own weight and manage their own bodies. Again I can walk round in a lean (but not much of one) with a partner hanging on me, but one dance only like that thanks.

I'll take your point that the connection is dynamic, no argument there - see my post above. But I wish everyone would stop contending that weight is shared, it isn't but reflected back and balance management is each partner's job within the dynamics of the dance.

This is better practised than written about. So what hold do you dance in?