Deliberate Practice

[tanjive]

From a recent thread:

Patience is necessary when learning tango. Too many dancers fail to learn simply due to lack of patience. However, all things come to he who waits, as long as he works his b*tt off while he waits. (Is that word permissible here)?

Most improvement in AT is made through small increments. It's important for you to look for and notice those little increments. By noticing them you will strengthen them, and you'll find reward for your efforts, small as it is. (Small as the reward is). Many little improvements will make you a good dancer.

I strongly suggest "deliberate practice". Look it up. It means decide on a specific skill that you want to improve (e.a., knowing which foot your partner is on); devise a drill/practice that will focus your attention narrowly on that skill; do the practice mindfully, with huge focus of attention.

As part of the "deliverate practice" method there needs to be measurable goals with quick feedback. You then put in the time and measure progess against said aims. Overtime the goals get harder.

Can any members suggest such measurable goals they use?
I guess these are best in the form of drills which are short in duration with instant feedback.

An example.

Perform a cross step in parallel walking within a set distance from a wall. At the end of the step aim to be the same distance from the wall (on leaders right). Aim to be same distance 8/10 times.

 

[tanjive]

Summary of what Deliberate practice is:

"Deliberate practice entails more than simply repeating a task — playing a C-minor scale 100 times, for instance, or hitting tennis serves until your shoulder pops out of its socket. Rather, it involves setting specific goals, obtaining immediate feedback and concentrating as much on technique as on outcome."

 

[fascination]

butt is fine...most other words that you might wonder about...aren't

 

[tangomonkey]

Summary of what Deliberate practice is:

"Deliberate practice entails more than simply repeating a task — playing a C-minor scale 100 times, for instance, or hitting tennis serves until your shoulder pops out of its socket. Rather, it involves setting specific goals, obtaining immediate feedback and concentrating as much on technique as on outcome."

K. Anders Ericcson wrote the book on deliberate practice, literally. Here's his faculty page. There is link worth reading. http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html

Ericcson says:
Continued improvements in achievement are not automatic consequences of more experience and in those domains where performance consistently increases aspiring experts seek out particular kinds of experience, that is deliberate practice -activities designed, typically by a teacher, for the sole purpose of effectively improving specific aspects of an individual's performance. For example, the critical difference between expert musicians differing in the level of attained solo performance concerned the amounts of time they had spent in solitary practice during their music development, which totaled around 10,000 hours by age 20 for the best experts, around 5,000 hours for the least accomplished expert musicians and only 2,000 hours for serious amateur pianists. More generally, the accumulated amount of deliberate practice is closely related to the attained level of performance of many types of experts, such as musicians

So according to him, after deliberate practice every day for an hour we will be serious amateurs after 5.5 years, experts after 14 years, and masters of tango in 28 years...

 

[AndaBien]

Summary of what Deliberate practice is:

"Deliberate practice entails more than simply repeating a task — playing a C-minor scale 100 times, for instance, or hitting tennis serves until your shoulder pops out of its socket. Rather, it involves setting specific goals, obtaining immediate feedback and concentrating as much on technique as on outcome."

Deliberate practice for the tennis player might be to use his backhand to return the ball cross-court, just inside the corner of the side line and back line. The feedback would be seeing were the ball went. What's left out in the explanation is realizing, through focused attention, why the ball went were it went and making an adjustment to correct.

I've used this method to practice a CW giro in CE. The feedback is seeing how the turn went, specifically. If it didn't go well, why not? Did I over-turn my shoulders? Put my axle foot in the wrong place? Throw my hips out of my axis? Cause my partner to loose balance or momentum? Also, if it went well, I need to realize why. The feedback must be not only received, but understood.

Repetition is important because the practice is then concentrated. If I'm working with a partner on the giro above, I can do it maybe 20 times in a few minutes, whereas at a milonga it would take me all night long to do that.

Also, the practice must not be mindless. That is just wasting time.

As a possibility - maintaining the connect (CE).

• Dance, doing a variety of steps, and notice where the connection breaks down.
• Do that step repeatedly, figuring out what caused the connection to break.
• Make an adjustment to fix that and try it again.
• Keep adjusting as needed. Keep noticing when the move goes well.

 

[opendoor]

... It means decide on a specific skill that you want to improve ... Can any members suggest such measurable goals they use?...

Hi tanjive, I´ve been a authodidact for many years, so this seems to be my method. I was always carrying out a new aspect. I saw something interesting on the dancefloor, tried it out with friends, asked for feedback, danced with experienced girls, asked for feedback again, watched vids, tried again, sought for the next step. Actually there were three main goals, first: predominantly social ones, then flashy figures, in the end healthy posture and body work

my first goals were, to learn how to

-get a peer group
-find a dance partner
-lead (wider sense)
-memorize figures, invent abbreviations,
-not to bob when walking (dancing smooth)
-collect and recognize music
-lead boleos


the second year began with a crisis: some girls said I was dancing bended over forward, so...

-dancing upright and the focussing on my own body followed

in the fourth year:

-to dance also in open embrace
-dance to Pugliese
-find a teacher

.

 

[AndaBien]

...Ericcson says:
Continued improvements in achievement are not automatic consequences of more experience and in those domains where performance consistently increases aspiring experts seek out particular kinds of experience, that is deliberate practice -activities designed, typically by a teacher, for the sole purpose of effectively improving specific aspects of an individual's performance. For example, the critical difference between expert musicians differing in the level of attained solo performance concerned the amounts of time they had spent in solitary practice during their music development, which totaled around 10,000 hours by age 20 for the best experts, around 5,000 hours for the least accomplished expert musicians and only 2,000 hours for serious amateur pianists. More generally, the accumulated amount of deliberate practice is closely related to the attained level of performance of many types of experts, such as musicians...

That statement is a bit confusing to me. What I think he's saying is that more practice is better, as long as it's deliberate.

My understanding of deliberate practice is that un-deliberate practice (mindless repetition) is of little value.

 

[tangomonkey]

That statement is a bit confusing to me. What I think he's saying is that more practice is better, as long as it's deliberate.

My understanding of deliberate practice is that un-deliberate practice (mindless repetition) is of little value.

You got it right. Your tennis and giro examples are what he means. Focused attention, and attempting to improve, not mindless repetition, is what matters.

And it will take 10,000 hours of that kind of practice to become a master at any activity...how depressing

 

[AndaBien]

...And it will take 10,000 hours of that kind of practice to become a master at any activity...how depressing

He's talking about getting to Carnegie Hall. As social dancers, we don't have that high a goal. Being a concert musician is way more difficult than being a good social dancer. If any social dancer wants to get better, there are effective and in-effective ways to do it. I've found that many basic dance problems can be overcome quickly and easily if practiced deliberately.

Another important point is to practice only as long as you can maintain focused concentration. I tell my students to practice certain things for only ten minutes/day (three tunes). By the end of a single week they will have an hour or more of good solid, constructive practice, and improvement is all but guaranteed.

 

[tangomonkey]

He's talking about getting to Carnegie Hall. As social dancers, we don't have that high a goal. Being a concert musician is way more difficult than being a good social dancer. If any social dancer wants to get better, there are effective and in-effective ways to do it. I've found that many basic dance problems can be overcome quickly and easily if practiced deliberately.

Another important point is to practice only as long as you can maintain focused concentration. I tell my students to practice certain things for only ten minutes/day (three tunes). By the end of a single week they will have an hour or more of good solid, constructive practice, and improvement is all but guaranteed.

Yes, all completely true.

It is very import to have and expert's guidance (that is, a very good teacher) to point out areas needing improvement and ways to practice so the improvement will happen.

 

[tanjive]

That statement is a bit confusing to me. What I think he's saying is that more practice is better, as long as it's deliberate.

My understanding of deliberate practice is that un-deliberate practice (mindless repetition) is of little value.

To be deliberate the specific action needs a measurable goal, with quick feedback. The goal should not be subjective like feels working better. You must then monitor your actions to your results. Just doing it without quantification would be mindless.

Measuring how steady the CW giro is over many iteration is the idea. More measurable dance qualities and how is what I am after.

 

[tangomonkey]

To be deliberate the specific action needs a measurable goal, with quick feedback. The goal should not be subjective like feels working better. You must then monitor your actions to your results. Just doing it without quantification would be mindless.

Measuring how steady the CW giro is over many iteration is the idea. More measurable dance qualities and how is what I am after.

Yes and no about the feels better part. If it doesn't feel like it is working better, it isn't. But I know what you mean...

 

[AndaBien]

To be deliberate the specific action needs a measurable goal, with quick feedback. The goal should not be subjective like feels working better. You must then monitor your actions to your results. Just doing it without quantification would be mindless.

Measuring how steady the CW giro is over many iteration is the idea. More measurable dance qualities and how is what I am after.

Quantifying it is their way of knowing how well the practice is going. Dance is my own personal experience and I know whether I am doing well or not. I can tell whether a giro comes out to my satisfaction or not. I don't know how to quantify my own personal experience. It is subjective, but I can still learn from it.

Alex Rodriguez (Yankee basball player) explained using DP to work on his batting. He practiced hitting the ball on the ground between 1st and 2nd base. His feedback was seeing where the ball went. In 15 minutes he could attempt this 180 times (assuming 5 seconds/pitch). You could say that seeing where the ball went was quantification, but I would say that feeling how the turn went was just as good.

 

[tangomonkey]

Just a couple thoughts which came to mind...

We talk about muscle memory but it isn't actually. Musicles are not capable of remembering. When learning something new, neural pathways are created in the brain, and these direct the body. That is why it takes so long to correct bad habits - new pathways or the alteration of old ones has to occur. It is also emphasizes how important doing things correctly right form the start and praciticng properly matters.

 

[AndaBien]

Just a couple thoughts which came to mind...

We talk about muscle memory but it isn't actually. Muscles are not capable of remembering. When learning something new, neural pathways are created in the brain, and these direct the body. That is why it takes so long to correct bad habits - new pathways or the alteration of old ones has to occur. It is also emphasizes how important doing things correctly right form the start and practicing properly matters.

Quite right. I think this is why deliberate practice is so valueable when developing physical skills. It gives one the chance to try a specific skill, observe the result, make an alteration and try it again, repeatedly in a small amount of time. This developes or alters neural pathways, because one can do it correctly (or well) more and more frequently until it becomes habit.