Differences in English theory/technique and Italian theory/technique in Standard Ball

[DancingJools]

I used to think power dancing was the cat's meow - the Italians are just so attractive when they do that. This year, at Blackpool, I watched what I felt was the highlight of the entire trip: John Wood, Andrew Sinkinson and Stephen Hillier doing a foxtrot, during a lecture. First they danced all three on the floor sans partner, then each solo with his partner, then all three of them together on the floor with partners.
I tell you, man, that nearly brought tears to my eyes. It was beautiful beyond measure. And it was finesse, through and through. So you can debate the intricacies of technique over and over, but in the end there is that moment of beauty, and it transcends technique.
[As an aside, I never realized what a handsome man John Wood is. I mean, movie star handsome.]

 

[madmaximus]

My English mentor dragged me to a Show that John Wood and Anne Lewis were performing.
Up till then, it was perhaps the most subtle dancing I had ever seen.

It changed the way I looked at technique.

If you notice the technique, then the dancer has failed.

And this is the fundamental flaw of the Power dancer.
We notice the effort--the physicality--more than the lyric beauty of the movement.


m

 

[Chris Stratton]

I would say for most competitiors out there the focus shold be Power Dancing.. to fit in with the pcak you have to be strong, with bold actions stamina and movement.. a good ten years of that and it's time to move on once you master that..

I wonder if fitting in with the pack is such a good goal? It would seem like that to win, you have to stand out. Of course you have to have enough movement, etc to fit into the recall from the early rounds before observation may hit the fine details - but by the final a couple that is just plain having an easier time of it may end up winning.

Finess come after lot's of experience, and a good partnership.. another ten years of that.. and it's time to mix and match..

Its my impression that the traditional English training taught finesse first; wheras of late it has become something of the later add on you suggest - and as a result you see its abscence a lot in teenage couples, whose performance can still be quite impressive in its power and presentation. One major concern I have with this is that if the finer technical details become a finishing touch rather than a fundamental, then those who drop out of competition programs before reaching that level may not be able to pass those details on if they later go into teaching - the finesse skills are not only usefull for competitors, but actually should form the basis of making social dancing easy and relaxing.

On Moore versus other sources: do you find inconsistencies? My quick glance through your Scrivner book confirmed a few things I had suspected where Moore's wording was a tad ambiguous, but I don't remember contradictions. In terms of holding onto the Moore book, I do so primarily because it is extremely consistent with what I've been taught by the best teachers I've had a chance to work with. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think something very close to that technique has been used to outstanding effect - which places a fairly high bar on the qualification of any replacement.

On the Irvines and no sway, I'd have to ask how much they were moving. We tend to think of sway as a decorative property today, but it's still connected to movement as both a cause and effect. Todays dancers are much more athletic (even the finesse ones) and move more than yesterdays, and so we are used to seeing more incline to the sway - but I think that if you scaled good modern dancing down to old or social movement, you should end up with something fairly vertical. For a training tape intended to teach fundamentals, that was and is quite appropriate. I'd say that the challenge would be to do everything on that tape, but then extend it to modern proportions, without breaking any of the original mechanics.

 

[Chris Stratton]

If you notice the technique, then the dancer has failed.

But if you know what to look for, you can still spot it - and more importantly, when you know why it's important, the consequences of it's abscence will instantly catch your eye.

And this is the fundamental flaw of the Power dancer.
We notice the effort--the physicality--more than the lyric beauty of the movement.

I would say that we notice the effort, and particularly the forced body position, as a consequence of a missing efficiency technique. However, those who have not seen the alternative will probably only see beauty in the interpretive flexibility - at least until you show them freeze frames of the more inelegant positions where a finesse technique was missed.

 

[madmaximus]

I would say that we notice the effort, and particularly the forced body position, as a consequence of a missing efficiency technique. However, those who have not seen the alternative will probably only see beauty in the interpretive flexibility - at least until you show them freeze frames of the more inelegant positions where a finesse technique was missed.

Can't say I disagree with this.
However, I've also known power dancers--who understand and CAN perform the right technique, but don't do it or push technique more for the sake of the drive for more "power" in their dancing--who contend that what I consider an inelegant position is elegant.

It is basically the same argument where a painter can paint in the classical realistic style but CHOOSES to paint in an impressionistic style instead.
Swathes of purple and green skies would offend some people's sensibilities, often judging such display of the absence of finesse to be inelegant and sophomoric.
Yet others hail it as an evolutionary step in the art form.

I guess the point is, who's to say what an in/elegant position is in the first place?
Much of artistry is opinion.
It relies upon the sensibilities and experience of the perceiver.

So to those who choose to, breaking the rules--opinions or standards, is the cost of evolution.
Otherwise dancing becomes stale.

[Shrug]
I can see their perspective--and at the moment I've no problem reconciling their arguments to their system of dancing.


m

 

[Laura]

I guess the point is, who's to say what an in/elegant position is in the first place?

The Book! The BOOK! 8)

Much of artistry is opinion.
It relies upon the sensibilities and experience of the perceiver

That's for sure. That's also why dance competitions can be so interesting and amusing.

I used to think power was everything. But now I'm getting into the idea of finesse. I'm getting old, and hence choose to be a lazy dancer...the more positive effect I can get out of the least amount of work, the happier I am. I expect that when my technique is sufficiently evolved along this path, I will simply have figured out how to take a single, simple, step, and will still experience all of the thrill and joy of dancing a round.

Okay, so I'm being weirdly poetic, but you get what I mean.

 

[madmaximus]

The Book! The BOOK! 8)

Do you perhaps refer to the book by the prophet Alex Moore?

That's for sure. That's also why dance competitions can be so interesting and amusing.

I used to think power was everything. But now I'm getting into the idea of finesse. I'm getting old, and hence choose to be a lazy dancer...the more positive effect I can get out of the least amount of work, the happier I am. I expect that when my technique is sufficiently evolved along this path, I will simply have figured out how to take a single, simple, step, and will still experience all of the thrill and joy of dancing a round.

Okay, so I'm being weirdly poetic, but you get what I mean.

Oh I get what you mean...

On the other hand, the thing about power dancing is that it IS so very attractive--it really pulls the eye.

There is also an underlying seductive appeal to it.



m

 

[Laura]

Do you perhaps refer to the book by the prophet Alex Moore?

All hail the prophet!

Seriously, I consider the book to be the start. I studied syllabus for several years, both privately and in intensive group classes, and The Book was my friend and companion.

Then coaches started telling me to stop dancing exactly like the book.

On the other hand, the thing about power dancing is that it IS so very attractive--it really pulls the eye.

This is so true -- and it makes the costumes look great. Especially floats. I wonder if we can correlate the swings in fashion trends regarding floats to swings in dancing trends in the power-vs.-finesse vein?

Now here's a question: are the differences between the English and Italian styles really just a reflection as to where the top coaches and couples from these countries are in their own personal explorations of movevent vis-a-vis Standard dancing? Or are the two really evolving on separate tracks?

 

[Chris Stratton]

Do you perhaps refer to the book by the prophet Alex Moore?

All hail the prophet!

Hello Alex, my old friend, I've come to read through you again.
Because a vision slowly clearing, left its seeds while I was reading
And the vision that was planted in my brain, eterenal frame
classic school of standard

In restless eves I danced alone, in darkened gyms my skills to own
But one evening at dance camp, I watched the finalists of champ
when my eyes were stabbed by the sight of a foot not right, it spoilt the night
so troubled by the trend of standard

And in my monitor glow I saw, ten thousand people, maybe more
People reaching without moving, people swaying without swinging
People crafting routines, that character never touched, and little cared
to read the source of standard

Hey, said I, its more than show, just power won't a dancer grow
Read his words and he might reach you, fill out your arms that he might teach you
But the words, like silent heel leads fall, forgotten by the schools of standard

And the dancers cheered and raved, about the dynamic gods they'd made
And the net flashed its warning in threads sporadicly storming
And the net said the words of the prophet are written on the subway wall
And college halls, but whispered in the schools of standard

 

[Laura]

Awesome, Chris.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

Awesome, Chris.

Ditto! A keeper if ever I saw one!

 

[flexi]

Opinion of types of finesse...

Watching a few top couples on the floor...
I would say that the stronger and more active the girl is, the more finesse the man can have in his dancing, and the more interesting the lady is to watch..
for example..

Timothy and Joanne.. I would say out of all the girls out there Joanne is one of the stongest girls on the floor. Opinion is she's a bit too much at times, but watching them as a couple who wants to see what timmy is doing.. ( I think Joanne would do just fine doing broadway musical theater...) But with her doing so much ( 50 50..??) or maybe (45 55.. lookes like)... timmy looks soft, but he doesn't look powerful, awe inspireing and all of that ( just seems to come off as a bit old...

Jonathon and Katusha.. again a couple with a very stong girl... Katusha seems to have ways of embelishing anything Jonathon does.. but here Jonathon still looks umm... steady, clear and very clean.. if your a footwork junkie watch him.. it's very clear there.. However again I never see jonathon do something that looks like OMG that was god like supernatural.. wow...
but yes, very nice, very clear, very classy good ballroom...

Pino and Alexsandra... never seen them compete live, only vids and show stuff... Opinion here ... a very well matched couple, to me I'd say eveything is straight down the middle 50 50. A lot of times, it appears what they do is connected, but compleatly independant of each other... this makes then extreamy quick, and light ( but also at times looks "skittery") Also being small
doesn't help in the OMG swing, OMG movement godlike powers.
Maybe the speed of the flash.. but easily lost on a big floor with some of those Tall guys dancing all power..

And Mirko and his girl ( sorry forget her name).. The's no question who's got energy here.. you wathc this guy, and it's like WOW... I've sen that before.. but not like that!! Godlike, awe inspireing. I find his partner so interesting I can't even remember her name... not meaning to offend, she's awesome.. he wouldn't be able to do anyting with a woman like her.. but I never seem to cathc her embelishing a lot, or doing too much hollywood stuff... great dancing, nice couple.. not so intereting girl... maybe (55 45)..

In these top couples it's not fair to really judge them like this, they're all awsome, I could learn infinatley with any of them.. but for this discussion I wanted to pose a possible idea...

I would lable Timothy and Jonathon as finesse dancers
Mirko as a power dancer
And Pino as mix and match...

So to the point and the question..
When I think out this finesse idea... I think of a guy who uses tech, and weight to MANAGE the energy of the couple. These guys don't really work up to much sweat because the use the weight and energy provided by their active partners to achive the goal of getting around the floor. Not that they can't from time to time really drive it out.. but they prefer to take it easy.. so everything looks calm, cool, smooth... Tis is definately an art, and isn't too easy..

In "power" couples I think the focus for the girl is to stay wit the man no matter what, and never do ANYTHING that can get in the way of the man's dancing.
This seems to make the guys look awesome, dominating and impressive, but makes the girls look rather uninteresting..
Mirko, Schiavo, Gieampiero... even Luca Baricchi even those I think of him as the ultimate in finesse...

And in some couples "mix and match" or a little of this a little of that..I think you have a couple that have a very well matched partners in skill ability and weights,,,
Pino aleksandra, Marcus and Karen, Crossly and Lyn...

My hypothosis.. the more active the lady, the softer the man's dancing can apper overall.. he does a less, she does more... however, it seems to sometimes make the guy look less strong, less dominating ..beause the more ative the lady the more she interfears with the man's dancing..

A less active lady, allows the man the most freedom, and can make him look incredible!! WOW amazing.. however, you might not find her that interesting to watch or sometimes things may appear a bit hard.. like those foxtrots and waltzs...

Mix and match, 50 50 exactly.. hmm.. this step is mince, and I think it's better if you do this one over here.. complicated, but can look great..
These types must have very strong communication skills to work everything out together...

 

[flexi]

And then there's what a friend of mine described as "big swing" couples
And "swirly curly couples" as styles.. and those who mix these together..

 

[Chris Stratton]

When I think out this finesse idea... I think of a guy who uses tech, and weight to MANAGE the energy of the couple. These guys don't really work up to much sweat because the use the weight and energy provided by their active partners to achive the goal of getting around the floor.

I think this is half of what is going on, but there's another half that is just as important, and without which it doesn't work. These would be the techniques that invite/enable their partners to move without obstruction or excessive exertion. Key examples would be things like creasing the right hip in an outside partner position, rolling through the full length of the foot where it is beneficial, and using body swing/movement to lead the swing of their own legs, rather than having an active moving leg then prompt the body swing.

In "power" couples I think the focus for the girl is to stay wit the man no matter what, and never do ANYTHING that can get in the way of the man's dancing.

To some extent, though I don't see it as quite so sexist. I see the power dancers as doing whatever they (with justification) think would be artistically or athletically interesting, primarily by moving their legs in the most direct way that will cause that, with relatively little concern about what that does to the mid-body alignment of the hold. If they try to maintain contact while forcing their legs through, the lady's back (and sometimes today the man's as well) can end up rather extremely arched. But that arch could appear consistent with a big topline, at least if you don't think about it's body mechanics cost.

Another way of describing it is that the difference I see are not role-dependent, but instead different techniques or at least emphasis that would show up similarly in both the man and lady - I think that I can map the difference in what I see at a high level to differences in what teachers from the two camps stress in working with students of just about any level. That doesn't mean that the two camps may not have derived different ideas of the duties of each partner, just that I'm convinced the key differences (and enabling skills) start at a much more fundamental level.

 

[madmaximus]

A good example of Power dancers--

Paolo Bosco & Sylvia Pitton (Amateur)


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