Differences in the ability to follow different leaders

A

Aurora

New Member
Is it normal to have no problem at all following some leaders and then turn around and be tripping over your feet with others?

Following seems as natural as breathing when I am dancing with some leaders. I just tune into them and go. But other leaders, who I have seen dance beautifully with other followers, are a mystery to me. I can't tell what they want me to do and I trip over their feet and mine. I had a particularly embarrassing moment last night when a leader was talking me up, saying how well I follow. The leader he was talking to then asked me to dance, and I felt completely lost, unable to discern what he was going for. Because I know that I follow some leaders well and they lead some followers well, it isn't just a complete lack of skill on either person's part.

If I don't ever see these leaders at a practica, is there any hope for me being able to follow them? Is it normal to take a while to adjust to some leaders? Is this something that might improve by itself as I get more experience and learn more? Or should I just accept that sometimes you just don't click?
 
There could be a lot of things going on, or not going on.
I'm am going to say that many, many tango dancers develop bad habits. If you are used to dancing with someone, you know what they do, so you know what to do.
If you've ever learned pattern based dancing, you might understand what I'm referring to. Women will say, "He only has to lead the first step, and I know what to do" to complete the pattern.
Leaders will experience this with relatively new (and some times women who have been around for quite a while) followers who will start doing countless ochos, or trying to complete an entire giro when they feel something familiar.
Maybe this explains how other people dance so well with the leaders you are having problems following. Maybe they just aren't leading each step, but are expecting you to "know what to do".

On the other hand, I know that sometimes I will get a partner who clearly isn't getting it. My view is that I have tried really really hard to not use my arms independently of my upper body. Although almost everyone knows that is supposed to happen, if you are used to "getting help" from the guys arms, when you don't feel it, it can feel like the guy "isn't leading", or "giving false signals".
I experimented with this for quite sometime. I would first lead something without any significant arm or hand pressure, and not get the response I was looking for. When I would add a bit of a push, I would get the response I expected. But only with certain women and in certain situations.

But, we don't really know what is going on between you and each of these men.

What has happened to me sometimes, with the more experienced followers, is that when they realize they aren't going to get anything from my arms or hands (and I can feel that they are missing things), they begin to give me a bit more resistance.
It's kind of like when you are having a conversation with someone, and a car drives by. You have to listen a bit more closely, or they have to speak a bit louder, or you can't hear everything they are saying anymore.

So, my standard advice is, if you can't feel a lead, try listening more closely by giving a bit more resistance.
If the guy then complains that you are "being too heavy"... ppffft

Once you gain enough experience (I'd say keep taking lessons, and be sure to learn about different styles, until you feel like you aren't learning anything worthwhile anymore) you will be better able to know why things aren't working.

And, yes, sometimes it just doesn't click. One thing about Argentine Tango is that there are many ways of doing things. It often comes down to personal preference, even if you can make it work.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful response! You're right, it's hard for anyone to tell me what might be going on without actually seeing it happen. Maybe this is a question for my teachers, who frequent these milongas and know my dancing as well as some of these leaders and followers (and the other teaching styles in the area!).

The good news is that I am continuing to take classes, and from two different teachers, so that hopefully I'll figure this out. Actually, my guess is that taking from this second teacher will help a great deal ... when I think about it, it seems like the leaders I have most easily followed are the ones who lead with a style similar to my first teacher's style. So maybe it's a matter of getting used to other ways of leading.
 
Aurora said:
Is it normal to have no problem at all following some leaders and then turn around and be tripping over your feet with others?

[...snip...

If I don't ever see these leaders at a practica, is there any hope for me being able to follow them? Is it normal to take a while to adjust to some leaders? Is this something that might improve by itself as I get more experience and learn more? Or should I just accept that sometimes you just don't click?
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IME, yes, that's normal.

Some leaders I just don't click with. Some take a bit longer to click with. Some I used to have a hard time following, but as I've gotten better, I have a much easier time following. Some leaders I haven't clicked with at all (to the point of having an extremely hard time following), then clicked incredibly well with the next time I danced with them (and had no problem following just about anything thrown at me). Sometimes, the reverse happens. Some leaders I clicked with right from the beginning, and always do.

There are days when I can relax and follow anything my teacher throws at me, and days when I can't follow the simplest things. Even after my usual 3 song warm up--when my teacher says he can feel the stress of the week and the drive in me when I start, and by the end of the third song I'm "purring like a kitten."

*shrug* Who knows? It's kind of like that magical connection you find with some partners...no way that I've found to predict when/how it will happen. I just try not to stress about it, because that DEFINITELY makes following worse.
 
Aurora said:
Is it normal to have no problem at all following some leaders and then turn around and be tripping over your feet with others?
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Yes!!! I've seen it happen to one or two pros that I respect very highly.

When this happens to me, it is because the lead is not using the embrace or his torso at all. His feet just run around/shuffle about beneath him, and almost always put a run in the toe of one of my nylons. No impetus comes from the body at all - just the feet. It is impossible to follow this sort of dancer. He will look moderately skilled when dancing with his regular partner, or with another dancer he sees regularly, simply because they practice the same patterns and tricks together.
 
It happens to leads too. I can lead some follows really well, but I can try someone who looks great with other leaders, and I can't lead her worth beans. I'm sometimes tempted to pull those leaders aside and ask them if they actually enjoy dancing with those follows or if they feel limited in what they can lead and just put up with that because they're hot or fun or whatever... But I can never work up the nerve :)
 
jhpark said:
It happens to leads too. I can lead some follows really well, but I can try someone who looks great with other leaders, and I can't lead her worth beans. I'm sometimes tempted to pull those leaders aside and ask them if they actually enjoy dancing with those follows or if they feel limited in what they can lead and just put up with that because they're hot or fun or whatever... But I can never work up the nerve :)
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Yes... I really would, as a follow, love to learn about the 'other side' of this. I do know that one of my dance friends has named a particular move as the *insert name of specific city* 'flip', because every time he would lead the lady to step forward to his right, she would IMMEDIATELY ocho and voleo and step right back in front of him in a tight cruzada... only happens when he attends milongas in that specific city... she'd just 'flip' around and step right back into his path... absolutely nothing he could do with these ladies... except follow. ;)
 
Aurora said:
Is it normal to have no problem at all following some leaders and then turn around and be tripping over your feet with others?
quote]

Yes it is totally natural to dance with a lead that leads a follower well but when it is your time to dance with same you find yourself tripping over your feet. It could be down many reasons, one being his lead or the lack of connection between the two (remember the connection between one couple will be different between another), another being of course anxiety before the embrace. If you suspect that you'll trip up before you even embrace then you'll trip up during it. Remember to just relax, have fun and be forgiving of yourself. Mistakes happen and dare I quote myself yet again - in God's eyes we are all but mere beginners. It's all gravy!!!
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Don't fall victim to what one of my students refers to as "...paralysis by analysis...".

Heather2007;471451Remember to just relax said:
Peaches also said something similar. This is actually of great importance --especially in AT. Not 'follow' but 'feeling' is what you are seeking.
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Aurora said:
... when I think about it, it seems like the leaders I have most easily followed are the ones who lead with a style similar to my first teacher's style.
Click to expand...

Yes there are teachers whose motto is "don't leave her any chance to move on her own!" and who will teach a very clear/firm/omnipresent lead. And others for whom the leaders merely invite the followers to step, by eliberating space and offering step options, one of the options having a higher probability to actually happen but the opther choices by the follower being valid too. And there are many other styles of course.
If your teacher is from the second type then you will probably feel an overlead when dancing with pupils from the first type.
 
Angel HI said:
Don't fall victim to what one of my students refers to as "...paralysis by analysis...".

Peaches also said something similar. This is actually of great importance --especially in AT. Not 'follow' but 'feeling' is what you are seeking.
Click to expand...


I am coming to the same conclusion: I was doing a workshop on 'flow and vals' and to get people to relax and focus on connection; i asked them to forget about thnking about what was the right foot, maintaing distance but to concetrtate soley on CONNECTION. The result was surprisingly good in terms of keeping a sense of flow with the music.
 
In my limited experience i find that some individual followers will change from "week to week" sometimes very heavy to lead, sometimes light as a feather, sometimes great connection, sometimes hard to move together fluently. I think it may be to way that followers/women are in real life - say no more.

Me personally as a leader, i find certain followers virtually impossible to dance with because of the embrace they adopt - V shape. My own lead varies a lot DURING each track because unless i focus in leading gently and cleanly. I do not want to become a moves monster just doing pattern after pattern in a robotic way. The difficulty is that by avoiding the latter i do not plan ahead and am not good enough to improvise -therefore i am sometimes hesitant.

Any suggestions on how i can overcome that? please.
 
Time, practice, and patience? *shrug* No idea, really, since I don't lead, but those things tend to fix most problems.
 
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