dilema- to dance or not to dance?

[jfm]

I know I'm about to get attacked from all sides, but this is a problem I have and maybe some other people do to but keep it a secret:

In my community there are a couple of leaders who I've been dancing with for years. They have become my friends and this is a part of the problem:

I'm not especially precious about my tango and I often enjoy dancing with beginners, however, there are some leaders who are not beginners but are seriously bad.

Disclaimer these are traits that i personally don't like, i'm not saying that they are bad for every one just me!
flinging you around, bending your back; wiggling their arms and shoulders all the time; having no ability to listen to the music ie dancing a fast tango to a milonga; not being able to find the beat and doing the same patterns of steps to every song in the same order;
being stinky and wearing stained clothes and stepping on my feet. Also saying things like "oh i was doing it syncopated" i know what syncopation is I am a musician. What they are doing is not syncopation unless the 20 years of musical instruction I have under gone is wrong.

I'm just really fed up because I really like these guys but i really don't enjoy dancing with them. I just don't want to dance with them at all.

Some time ago one of our local teachers asked one of them if he would do her a favour and partner me in a back to basics work shop she was running. His response was that he had no need to attend because his dancing was fine. I don't want to say: look I think there are things we need to work on together because he obviously doesn't get it and from previous experience it will be taken as a personal insult rather than the intended helpful nudge.

It's not about being 'good' at tango it's about having ok technique so the person you are dancing with can enjoy it too. I'm really fed up with the whole "i don't care whether i'm hurting you/ stressing you out/generally not making this enjoyable for both of us because I'm having a brilliant time"

It's got to the point where I am considering not going to local milongas so that I can avoid dancing with them.

How do other people deal with this?

 

[Twilight_Elena]

I'm not an AT dancer, but what you're describing applies to ballroom as well (and salsa, and swing, I imagine). What puzzles me here is that you're friends with people who apparently have no respect for their dance partner and are headstrong and easily insulted, which means that they're not the greatest people, personality wise. If they are indeed your friends then you should talk to them about it. If they don't want to listen then I don't see why you should care. Explain politely that you can't enjoy dancing with them when they're manhandling you and refuse to listen to even professional advice (like your teacher's suggestion). if they don't get it then it's THEIR problem, not yours.
Having bad technique and/or bad musicality is something many dancers have to face. However, being stubborn and cocky is a personality issue, not a dance issue. IMO.
Wish you luck. Keep us posted!

 

[Peaches]

jfm, I totally sympathise. I've run into the exact same problem you describe, and I think I've brought it up on the forum before (and been crucified for it, lol). I still don't have a good answer for you. I go with the avoidance technique, if possible.

It's hard, especially when you've become friendly with these people.

 

[elisedance]

If you value these people as friends how about suggesting you take a private lesson with them to 'brush up your technical skills'. You can then - a bit cautiously and discretely - tell the teacher what ails you. If they refuse to do this then be honest with them - but don't blame them. Just say that you have a hard time dancing with them and while you do not know whether its their or your 'fault' you can not do so any more. You've then achieved either a great end - learning together - or an adequate one, not dancing together.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

jfm, I hear you. The dilemma looks very familiar. I try to remain friendly while extricating myself from dancing with such people. Fortunately, our Tango community is quite large. People who dance a certain way tend to go to certain milongas, as there are numerous each week. So we end up dancing in different places. Oftentimes, but not always.

Some of them, in my case, got the hint, and stopped asking. But others keep asking. Some even tried to talk to me to find out what was wrong, and why I didn't dance with them anymore. "Is it because I don't like their dancing, and if so, why?" I replied, basically, with "it's not you, it's me" speech, but it wasn't easy

Good luck.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'm a guy, so my perspective is a bit different, but here goes.

If you consider these men to be your "friends", and you want to continue dancing with them, you should bring up the reasons why you don't want to dance with them as tactfully as possible. (P.S. I have many acquaintances, but few friends.)
Be as specific as you can, but tell it from your perspective. This one would be fun, "Gosh, how come you keep stepping on me? It really hurts, you know?"

(There are many times that I could explain to the woman why something isn't working, or why they are feeling such and such. Usually they aren't asking, just complaining. But, if these guys don't really know what they are doing, you aren't going to get useful answers.)

I have passed the point where I will tolerate someone else making me feel discomfort for any length of time. It is a good place to be. Maybe you would like it here, too.

If you simply don't want to dance with these men anymore, you need to learn to say, "No, thank you".
If they ask you why, give them a chance to back off. "Are you sure you want to know?"
If they persist, tell them as gently as possible.

And, I'd like to encourage everyone to be willing to talk about your dance, rather than avoid discussion (off the floor or between dances, of course). I know not everyone is cut out for it, but you can sometimes gain insight by simply exchanging information or comparing notes.

 

[nucat78]

As a lead who has indeed stepped on a few toes, I think you'd only be hurting yourself if you avoided milongas just because of these guys.

If I were hurting a partner or being too rough, I'd sure want to know about it.

 

[Aurora]

I have had experiences like this, but because I haven't been dancing for too long I am not always sure if it is the leader or me (or both of us!). I have tried to resolve the issue by telling the leader that I would love to dance with them at the practica I regularly go to. It's pretty easy to do if I just danced with them and had something go wrong - I just mention that something wasn't working and I'd love to work it out with them at the practica. It's a chance to get them into a setting where the whole point is to provide feedback.

If they refuse to come to the practica and don't change, I stop dancing with them. I did this with one leader who was also simply being rude to me, and eventually I saw him at practicas again and had a chance to improve our dancing.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Male self-esteem can be quite robust when subject to criticism in a respectable way. They might go a bit surly for a while, but I don't think it would take them long to forgive a bit of a slap to their egos and come back stronger.

Basically, they can respond in a few ways:

1) Ooh, I didn't realise, I'll do better. They resolve the issue.
2) How dare you, begone from my sight! They don't dance with you any more. You should be able to make ammends in terms of friendship.
3) What the hell do you know about it? They don't believe you, nothing changes, they'll probably not think any the worse of you in the long term.

The response will be dependent on how the criticism is put to them. If they never find out they're doing something drastically wrong, they'll never fix it. Imagine the service to your whole community that might be performed by clearing up their bad habits.

Alternatively, you can deal with it the way I do (sorry, I'm a leader, it's not so easy for you). I greet the people I like with friendly banter and cheery wave, and then make no attempt to dance with them. I chat with them at the end of the evening too. I bear them no malice for being not to my taste, and I hope that they see it the same way.

In my opinion, you should go where you please, give them a strong friendliness offensive to take away the sting, and then refuse nicely if they ask you to dance. Just remember to give them a chance every once in a while, just in case they've fixed their problems.

We (dancers) are not special needs children. We don't need to be handled like we're about to explode. If a person cannot take a bit of positively phrased criticism from time to time then they need to grow up.

 

[newbie]

How about saying "No, thank you" when they invite you?

 

[elisedance]

We (dancers) are not special needs children. We don't need to be handled like we're about to explode. If a person cannot take a bit of positively phrased criticism from time to time then they need to grow up.

I like that very much. I wish it was always - even generally - true. However, I think many people are actually exceedingly sensitive to even the slightest critisism of their dancing. And thats true accross the board regardless of the level.

I wonder if this is due to the reality of our dance ability versus the inner dream of it. Even if we dance poorly (on whatever scale) we can still get enormous pleasure from it - so we can not be imagining that we dance badly. Perhaps we all have an 'inner Najinski' (or isadora duncan if you prefer ) that is perfect and critism contradicts this personna.

 

[Angel HI]

There are several good posts here. From a prefessional perspective, this one ranks very well, and bears repeating....

If you value these people as friends how about suggesting you take a private lesson with them to 'brush up your technical skills'. You can then - a bit cautiously and discretely - tell the teacher what ails you. If they refuse to do this then be honest with them - but don't blame them. Just say that you have a hard time dancing with them and while you do not know whether its their or your 'fault' you can not do so any more. You've then achieved either a great end - learning together - or an adequate one, not dancing together.

 

[Heather2007]

I know I'm about to get attacked from all sides, but this is a problem I have and maybe some other people do to but keep it a secret.....

I can fully understand the sensitivity of those that would prefer not to take what they would view the offending route and just suffer the bad dance instead. Failing that, there's always the quick beeline to the loo on their approach route (but how many times can one do that without the risk of others questioning one's bladder functionings?) If these chaps are who you regard as friends then why not advise them in much the same way you advise a non-tango friend. How? With total honesty. If you find that their ego comes into play and they are now projecting a perfect execution of a toddler pout with a look in their eye that suggests that their friendship with you is about to self-destruct, then... so be it. (Or as we Londoners would say in response: Face. Bovvered. Face.) Reading your post again, yes, definitely resort to Newbie's advice and just say no, if they are hurting you/stressing you etc. That is major beyond major.

Staying on the subject of friends. Your friend refused to partner with you on a back to basics workshop? So, he chose not to help out a fellow friend? Hmm... I would question my friendship with him.

Honest advice or just just an honest, no thank you.

 

[Heather2007]

(P.S. I have many acquaintances, but few friends.)

You and me both. My friends are those whose company I want to be in/turn to etc. when I don't want to dance or talk tango.

 

[Me]

Some time ago one of our local teachers asked one of them if he would do her a favour and partner me in a back to basics work shop she was running. His response was that he had no need to attend because his dancing was fine.

Ha! Well not to discourage you but if the teacher cannot reach him, I doubt you can, either. It is... possible... that if you take elisedance's advice about a private lesson, this would be one way the lead could be 'reminded' about some basics, but I gotta' tell you. With that 'my dancing is just fine' attitude, you may just need to forget him. The only way he might improve would be if an 'Argentine' (cue angelic chorus) came in and taught a workshop on how to walk. But sometimes even that doesn't work. The truly deluded will brag about how the class was 'too simple' or just flat-out lie about how the visiting instructor was 'so impressed with their dancing.'

But as far as what to do in a social setting... when there is a lead who clearly thinks he is 'all that and a bag of chips' and he asks me to dance, I strictly follow, even if I 'think' he 'might' be leading some pattern covered in a recent class. This always creates problems, as generally twisting, flinging, etc, stem from problems with lead. No amount of twisting is going to 'make' me complete some sort of BS pattern that isn't lead correctly, but it will make me say, "Ooh, ouch. Please don't twist me." After a couple of dances like this, they generally won't ask me to dance again. Sometimes they express an interest in understanding what they may be doing wrong, and will dance with me again at future socials, but others brush me off and can be quite rude. Once I had an 'instructor' who, after shuffling and kicking his feet all over mine for two dances, said, "No connection. No connection at all" and has refused to dance with me since.