Do do we ever pay off the debt?

[j_alexandra]

This showed up on my FB feed today. It's from a salsa community, but the concepts seem universal to me.
"If we were smarter, we’d want to dance with beginners more.
Advanced dancers can compensate.Beginners can’t.
And that’s the point.
Because beginners:
• show you whether your leading is actually clear• force you to slow down (and actually connect)• expose your bad habits instantly• respond honestly to your timing, frame, and intention• genuinely appreciate and get excited by simple things• make you lead with clarity instead of tricks• show you whether your “technique” is real or memorised• teach you patience — which is literally a leadership skill
But there’s more.
Dancing with beginners:
• helps the community grow instead of stagnate• keeps new dancers coming back instead of quitting• creates safer, more welcoming dance floors• pays forward what someone once gave you• builds trust, confidence, and belonging• makes a real difference to that individual
To you, it’s one dance.To them, it can be the reason they stay.
If you can make a beginner feel safe, relaxed, and understood…You’re not just a good dancer.
You’re a good leader.
Most people avoid beginners to protect their image.The best dancers seek them out to sharpen their skill.
That difference?That’s growth."

 

[Rabbit]

someone needs to put up a version of that for followers

 

[j_alexandra]

someone needs to put up a version of that for followers

It would pretty much go like this:

Beginner leads:
• show you whether your partnering is actually clear• force you to slow down (and actually connect)• expose your bad habits instantly• respond honestly to your timing, frame, and intention• genuinely appreciate and get excited by simple things• help you partner with clarity • show you whether your “technique” is real or memorized• teach you patience — which is literally a partnering skill

The rest of the original post is pretty role-neutral.

I have learned a LOT from beginner leads; they are among my best teachers. Thanks, y'all.

 

[itwillhappen]

I understand the interests of organizers and teachers; if you want a community, you have to dance together. I felt the same way when I occasionally helped organize smaller milongas.

But it takes a combination of patience, a broad stance, and assertiveness to offer beginners a pleasant tanda. These are pretty much the least sought-after skills for "the best". Two-way communication, responsiveness, sensitive technique and musicality are paramount. A beginner's tanda is unlikely to replace private lessons in advanced topics.

Something like this video, for example; I plan to still actively work on that with my SO:

 

[Pryn]

I have learned a LOT from beginner leads; they are among my best teachers. Thanks, y'all.

Same. For me, dancing with a beginner tests how well I understand (not just know) my craft.

 

[Brummbaer]

But it takes a combination of patience, a broad stance, and assertiveness to offer beginners a pleasant tanda.

And that's why it's more appropriate for the 'advanced', not those who just think they are (including 'hotshots'). And, of course, AT has no measured 'levels' (it's relative, and I'm not recommending that!). There's a transition from some measure of 'intermediate' to the large space beyond, which we call 'advanced'. But it's not just reserved for 'professionals'. Many in social dance, not just AT, settle for 'good enough'. Nothing wrong with that as a stance - provided you recognise it.

someone needs to put up a version of that for followers

Maybe the transition between levels is different for followers than for leads, but I'd say, for those followers who are truly 'advanced', then it's as obvious in the same way for advanced 'leaders' - at least in a práctica- type setting. An 'advanced' follower can explain better, and probably lead better, what a lead needs to do. The milonga is different.

 

[itwillhappen]

And that's why it's more appropriate for the 'advanced', not those who just think they are (including 'hotshots').

Yes, I agree with you; I was only referring to the learning effect.
Perhaps it's the advantage of "advanced" dancers that they don't blindly adopt bold statements from teachers and others because they are already familiar with the widespread contradictions.

 

[Rabbit]

But it takes a combination of patience, a broad stance, and assertiveness to offer beginners a pleasant tanda. These are pretty much the least sought-after skills for "the best". Two-way communication, responsiveness, sensitive technique and musicality are paramount. A beginner's tanda is unlikely to replace private lessons in advanced topics.

I know I am probably an outlier but I frequently experience very good connection with people relatively new to tango. (not everyone though)

 

[brujo]

A thing I noticed recently is that being in tango makes you more aware of paying it forward in other dances. Where at salsa/bachata/fusion events I notice some of the older folks that are a bit more uncomfortable or ironing chairs, or newbies that are a bit too scared to dance and ask them to dance because of how uncomfortable that still is to me in tango.

 

[pianistamediano]

A thing I noticed recently is that being in tango makes you more aware of paying it forward in other dances. Where at salsa/bachata/fusion events I notice some of the older folks that are a bit more uncomfortable or ironing chairs, or newbies that are a bit too scared to dance and ask them to dance because of how uncomfortable that still is to me in tango.

I mean, the next time followers complain about age discrimination, I'll just point out that the tendency to ignore/belittle older dancers is much more extreme in Latin dances like salsa or bachata than in tango, and much less prevalent (though still present) in dances like swing.

 

[Bailango]

I'll just point out that the tendency to ignore/belittle older dancers is much more extreme in Latin dances like salsa

That’s not true at all. Salsa is a vast universe. There are venues where salsa dancing is mostly older folks. Just like in tango. Different dance venues have different demographics. There are a lot more older people dancing salsa than tango. There are also a lot more younger people dancing salsa than tango. The young people in tango too are reluctant to dance with older people. If you are a good dancer and old, a lot of people will want to dance with you whether it is salsa or tango. People in their 40s and 50s at the festivals have no problem dancing all night at salsa. They overwhelmingly tend to be men and they are mostly good. A lot of followers quit salsa in their 40s. But there are a lot of very casual dancers (both men and women) who are in 50s, 60s, 70s that frequent more laidback casual salsa venues where leaders are not spinning followers like crazy.

A lot of loose talk gets thrown around on here.

 

[opendoor]

That’s not true at all...

Bailango, why do you find it so hard to admit that pianistamediano is right?

..There are venues where salsa dancing is mostly older folks.. Different dance venues have different demographics..

If the parties for older and younger dancers were to merge, then older followers would have much! worse chances than it is the case in the tango scene.

..A lot of followers quit salsa in their 40s..

And when they show up for the tango, they become the center of attention..

..But A lot of loose talk gets thrown around on here.

Unfortunately not!

 

[pianistamediano]

I'll point out that you're only supporting my post with what you've said by highlighting those statements.

... Salsa is a vast universe. There are venues where salsa dancing is mostly older folks. Just like in tango. Different dance venues have different demographics. There are a lot more older people dancing salsa than tango. There are also a lot more younger people dancing salsa than tango.

Your first six sentences acknowledge the far larger dancer population in salsa, and also acknowledge that different events in both salsa and tango will have different demographics. That's alright.

The young people in tango too are reluctant to dance with older people.

This sentence below acknowledges the reluctance of younger people to dance with older people in tango and in salsa; and that's 100% okay, because pushing people to dance with people they don't want to is wrong. At best you can encourage them to do so, but that's all. If I keep getting reminded to dance with dancers belonging to sub-population X, I'm going to NOT dance with them out of spite.

If you are a good dancer and old, a lot of people will want to dance with you whether it is salsa or tango. People in their 40s and 50s at the festivals have no problem dancing all night at salsa. They overwhelmingly tend to be men and they are mostly good.

Yes, all true. And this still doesn't disprove my point. We're getting somewhere...

A lot of followers quit salsa in their 40s.

This just supports my point — disregarding medical concerns or life getting in the way, if they're still getting dances and enjoying themselves, they wouldn't quit, or just go to an event where the demographic is older. Salsa is a younger woman's game.

Personally, I don't hear about followers in tango quitting in their 40s; it's more 50s or 60s or above. Then again, YMMV.

But there are a lot of very casual dancers (both men and women) who are in 50s, 60s, 70s that frequent more laidback casual salsa venues where leaders are not spinning followers like crazy.

I don't think you get what I'm talking about — I'm speaking specifically about venues in either tango or salsa with a mix of demographics. How the heck would age discrimination occur if they're all old already?? Beyond some age, the difference is academic. Maybe you could argue that men in their 60s would rather dance with women in their 60s than 80s, but all I've seen in tango events I DJed for with that particular demographic is that unless the woman/man is infirm or just a bad dancer, they dance just as much as everyone else.

Obviously, if we're talking about age discrimination, we must consider only events/venues where there is a good mixture of ages, what I would say spans at least 50% older and above. (For example, people in their 30s to people in their 50s). It's disingenuous to talk about age discrimination when the average difference in age might just be 10-20 years, and the youngest dancer there is in their 50s. A person in their 40s is going to seem a lot older to a person in their 20s, but a person in their 60s won't see a person in their 80s as that much older. The relative perspective matters.

I've seen a lot of those events in tango, and ceteris paribus, a leader will choose to dance with a younger follower. I've seen older followers that were great (speaking from personal experience) who sit down for an hour while younger followers dance almost non-stop. I've seen disgusting men in their 60s gravitate towards the pretty young things and I've seen them standing around, having their cabeceos ignored. I've been ignored by older dancers because of my relative youth too. That's reverse age discrimination for you.

When comparing tango to salsa, it's disingenuous to compare something like an """elite""" (lmao) marathon to a regular, local neighborhood party in Havana. The tango equivalent would probably be Club Sunderland. You'll see whole families go out there and dance with each other and their friends. Age isn't really a factor. So we should compare events with similar demographics.

If, in your salsa experience (far greater than mine!), you have encountered the same or a lesser level of age discrimination as in tango, then I'm glad to hear it!

For my part, I only developed this opinion after speaking with tango followers who've danced salsa, bachata and/or kizomba. They've told me stories about aging out of these dances, and they've danced everywhere from Cali to New York. They all mentioned that tango, despite existing age discrimination in some/many events, is still much kinder to them.

Even more if they attend events targeting their own demographic such as the Feast or Thames Valley tango's triannual events in England, Melina Sedo's events, European encuentros in general. I think just how insanely fast the sign-ups for individual followers are, speaks to how much potential enjoyment the followers believe they'll receive at those events.

 

[brujo]

For my part, I only developed this opinion after speaking with tango followers who've danced salsa, bachata and/or kizomba. They've told me stories about aging out of these dances, and they've danced everywhere from Cali to New York. They all mentioned that tango, despite existing age discrimination in some/many events, is still much kinder to them.

I think there is a difference between the studio dance social environment that is pretty much what you described and the broader salsa in the community social scene. In the US at least, there are a lot of events ran by local bars, outdoor events and such that often have a live band and are super open to the public and non-dancers. There is much of an everyone gets to dance attitude there. We even have a group in my local community that calls themselves fabuelas ( fabulous abuelas / grannies ) that have grandchildren and great grandchildren, are in 60s-80s and go out and probably get more dances at those events than young hot women.

I think this type of events are pretty rare outside of Buenos Aires. Even at tango outdoor events you'll see a lot of the same faces at the local milongas. And those who show up from the community only sit and watch vs at the salsa events where with enough gentle prodding even ladies in walkers join in to the dancing. Just a different attitude.

 

[itwillhappen]

We're falling back into the cliché that strong leaders should drag weaker followers from the sidelines onto the dance floor.
But since there is a shortage leaders in tango (in Western Europe), it unfortunately becomes the task of strong followers to drag weaker leaders onto the dance floor...