Don’t talk – just dance!

[Lui]

With a little good will the whole discussion about semantics is pointless. Real Tango happens in real live on the dance floor. The Internet is only a very dull reflection of it. Here are some reasons, why I think that the search for correct definitions will be in vain - which does, of course, not mean, that you can not enjoy to keep on searching.

1. Sophisticated lessons ask for a lot of technical terms. When I was taught by some old time couples in BA. They did it this way: They showed us the step, the danced it with us and had us to imitate it. Than the danced it again with us, pointing out the mistakes by pronouncing the correct form through the frame/the lead. It’s hard to describe, but the women could take over the lead for the time necessary. It was the only way possible, since I didn’t speak Spanish and they didn’t speak German or English, at that time. Nevertheless, it was a good way, as everything I learned worked in the real world. My understanding of the coherences, background and different styles of Tango grew very slowly, but that didn’t matter as I was finally dancing at the Milongas.
   
   In my experience customers in Europe are not happy to imitate their teacher slavishly. The prefer every detail to be explained in context and to get a good reason to do this exercise or try that style. One advantage is, that they can learn faster. The downside is, that many technical terms are now necessary. Some are even made up in different language which creates a tango Babylon.
   
   
2. There is no authority to norm these terms. Even when we agree on the terms in this forum, the rest of the world will go on like always before. The rest is pretty big. Maybe if the Argentine Government or the UNESCO would join the task, there might be a change. However, they have much more pressing problems and any possible result might be pretty artificial. (Anybody remembering Esperanto).
   
   
3. Young people have a tendency to coin new terms – maby just to distinguish themselves form the outdated oldtimers. What I learned as a saludo I see now sold as a forward boleo – under the excuse to have a consistent boleo system. When I ask how to differ between a saludo and a látigo they tell my it’s all boleo to them
   
   
4. You can not learn Tango just by reading a forum or watching videos. Many aspects evade this medium and have to be felt to be understood. The pressure, it’s dynamic, the respond of the partner, the tangle on the dance floor: it can never be exhaustedly explained in all the threads possible - but easily experienced in real life.
   
   
5. Every minute you spend on definition you could rather be dancing. Even if you develop the perfect understanding of the Tango moves, you need to train them. Muscle, timing and experience will not come through pure intellect. Almost every German male as an excellent understanding of soccer. Their technical terms are flawless. Nevertheless, very few qualify for the national team and even those win the World Cup very seldom.
   
   
6. Asking an experienced authority to demonstrate will save you hours of speculation and trying. Find a professional dancer, you accept as an authority. Ask him/her to explain a solution to your problem in real life (see point one). Most likely he/she will have encountered all those pitfalls and trapdoors before and therefore can point out a straight solution. There are places were you can find more authorities on all styles than elsewhere. However I don’t want to start the BA-debate again .
   
   
7. Not everybody will accept the same authorities. Sometimes there are different schools of thought. Walk with the tip/hell. Dance close/alternating/open. When dancing close share some weight/don’t do it. Each technique has it’s downsides and advantages. Eventually you will have to make some personal choices. These choice usually depend on the music, your partner, the available space, your peer group and, of course, your impeccable taste. Many are not blessed with your wisdom. They make the wrong choices. By cruelty of nature they are doomed to a poor life in ignorance. Don’t try to convert them, nature is stronger anyway. Just pity them.

 

[JohnEm]

Broadly I agree Lui.

Perhaps we're talking when we can't dance.
I wish here was more like BsAs with more
opportunities and choices but it isn't and
never will be presumably.

Making those choices in Items 6 & 7 are where the difficulties lie.

Teachers are regarded as the authorities, by beginners especially, and teach their own individual interpretation and confusion reigns. It takes time and effort to research, to read, think, experiment and self-determination and self-confidence too to try and make the correct decisions.

It's a shame this forum doesn't seem to be a source of very much clearly thought out knowledge.

 

[bordertangoman]

I agree especially with your first point. When I teach I try to make sure that both leaders and followers "feel" what I am doing. The brain hungers for analysis but the heart just gets "it."

 

[pascal]

[*]Every minute you spend on definition you could rather be dancing.

Unless you're a teacher. A teacher has to spend non-dancing time on tango.

 

[Mario7]

Nice post Lui, I appreciate your taking the time to compose such edifying verbiage.
Speaking for myself..living in a small town where the one weekly milonga is being co-opted and could be soon disappeared...I look for lots of talking about the dance
and (as you pointed out) enjoy doing so. Sure if I could dance more, I would probably talk (post) less... it's like the old line of the painter.."If I could say it, I wouldn't paint it."

 

[opendoor]

...Every minute you spend on definition you could rather be dancing. Even if you develop the perfect understanding of the Tango moves, you need to train them. Muscle, timing and experience will not come through pure intellect.

I do not agree, absolutely not ! And I hope you know that I do not want to attack you, personally! A tango student´s view is totally different, and I wonder, how you could forget about it? TA is not moves, is not muscle, timing, posture, axis, and experience... It´s a span of life, it occurs sooner or later, it deals with collapse, failure, and re-invention.

You MUST spend hours for hours on definitions. You HAVE to question almost everything. You are, and you live that period of haunting uncertainty, unless you wound not find any firm grounds. I feel so akin to Mario, its me 4 years ago! I ran out of my first tango class, teachers used to throw me out of their classes regularly then, I learned on my own (until I found Karin and Gus). I used to dance Tango first, as recently as now I slowly begin to start learning! If you want to learn TA, too, you have to wrestle with it! Lui, please do not promise that Tango can be learned in classes and lessons!

 

[Steve Pastor]

Clarity of thinking is very helpful when learning anything. Well chosen, well defined concepts are important in teaching, also.
Right now, I've decided to invest 4 days and hundreds of dollars to take lessons from someone in LA who has been dancing and teaching for over 50 years. I've read what she has written, and I've been to one class she taught. She's had many years to find out what works and what doesn't.
I've also had at least one excellent teacher who could verbalize things, but at the same time gave us exercises so we could actually experience what he was telling us.

The woman I refer to is Skippy Blair, best know nowadays for her long term involvement with West Coast Swing. She states that we know so much more about dance than "we" did back in early 1950s when she began teaching.

I mentioned Physics and the Art of Dance recently in another thread. The author writes that, although there was initially opposition to applying physics to dance, and learning about it, many people became convinced that know how and why something works was helpful.

Borisvan's thread helped me clarify my thinking on the "shared axis" of apilado.
(On the other hand, no one has to accept my reasoning, either!)

 

[Angel HI]

It's a shame this forum doesn't seem to be a source of very much clearly thought out knowledge. [/quote]

It was! And, I am sick of it not being that way, again. I, for one, am working to get it back to that.

 

[Angel HI]

Clarity of thinking is very helpful when learning anything. Well chosen, well defined concepts are important in teaching, also.

Absolutely.

 

[Lui]

Tango is a pretty complex field. It’s particular aspects don’t have razor sharp borderline, but the borders are rather fuzzy. Just consider where exactly Milonguero stops and Salon starts. Therefore, any definition remains a little arbitrary and far from perfect. Nevertheless you can work with most of them. These definitions are merely containers. I could spend all my time to cut the dance in all that tiny parts and try to form containers that fit perfectly. Sometimes, I even do. However, again and again I reach a point at which I decide to start working/playing with the content even when the container still is ugly.

I’m not asking you to stop thinking or talking. Nor did I state that tango should be only learned by taking classes. However, you should not promise that tango can be learned by just and only thinking. It is a dance and it will only be learned by dancing, dancing a lot, dancing in classes, in Milongas, in your private training and yes maybe even in your mind. If you dances a lot and critical consider what you are doing, you might become a great dancer. If you skip the dancing and just consider the theoretical aspects, you will be a fantastic thinker of being a great dancer.

@Pascal
I agree that a teacher needs to spend some non-dancing-time on Tango. Therefore, it is better to come up with some well-thought-out definitions before becoming a teacher. Later you need the time for loads of other stuff, at least I do.

@Opendoor
I’m not offended at all. It would be very boring if we all agree all the time. I’m just thinking at this moment that I’ve been very lucky. While my tango life had it’s ups and downs, it was a very pleasant and gratifying journey in general. Maybe because fate dropped some very skilled teacher in my way. Ok, I’ve been looking around a little bit as well.

@Mario
I can comprehend your dilemma. Nevertheless, that won’t change a bit, the Internet is a very limited place in its possibilities to improve dancing. Ok, I might be alone with this opinion, but I remain committed to it. If you are unable to travel, maybe you can invite some teachers to your place. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that you will be the impulse to form the Tango community you desire in San Miguel Allende.

@ Steve Pastor
I agree, that a teacher, who knows his/hers field , can verbalize it and has a good pedagogical concept, is an optimum. Once you start talking you need the word – the definitions. Once many start talking independently, you will get a variety of definitions. I don’t say clear concepts are bad, just the opposite. In this case they seemed to be bought by some competing definitions. A price I’m willing to pay

Skippy Blair sounds like a great teacher. Beside considering her filed, she will have done quite a share of dancing, too - I bet. I envy you a little bit for those 4 days.

 

[Dave Bailey]

The irony of spending a lot of time writing about how you shouldn't spend a lot of time writing about tango appeals to me

With a little good will the whole discussion about semantics is pointless.

I disagree - it's helped me understand some things.

In my experience customers in Europe are not happy to imitate their teacher slavishly.

Well, good. Surely?

I mean, if you're just going to demonstrate a movement, you're a demonstrator not a teacher. Aren't you?

One advantage is, that they can learn faster. The downside is, that many technical terms are now necessary.

I'm not sure that's true. It's quite possible to teach a class, explaining the concepts, with a minimum of jargon.

There is no authority to norm these terms.

Then don't use them. Don't talk about "ochos" - talk about "pivots".

Young people have a tendency to coin new terms –

Then don't use them. Use terms which describe the thing accurately to your audience.

You can not learn Tango just by reading a forum or watching videos.

No, of course not. But discussion of aspects of dancing can help you. Ultimately, every physical activity requires more than "just do it" - you need to think about it, research it, and yes, discuss it, to get past a certain point. Ultimately, sometimes you need to do the boring academic research and discussions, even in physical activities.

Every minute you spend on definition you could rather be dancing.

Blimey, I wish. Some of us can't dance every day and night.

Asking an experienced authority to demonstrate will save you hours of speculation and trying. Find a professional dancer, you accept as an authority. Ask him/her to explain a solution to your problem in real life (see point one). Most likely he/she will have encountered all those pitfalls and trapdoors before and therefore can point out a straight solution. There are places were you can find more authorities on all styles than elsewhere. However I don’t want to start the BA-debate again .

I agree with all of this. However, what about the 99% of the time when you when you can't easily get hold of such an authority?

Not everybody will accept the same authorities. Sometimes there are different schools of thought. Walk with the tip/hell. Dance close/alternating/open. When dancing close share some weight/don’t do it. Each technique has it’s downsides and advantages. Eventually you will have to make some personal choices. These choice usually depend on the music, your partner, the available space, your peer group and, of course, your impeccable taste. Many are not blessed with your wisdom. They make the wrong choices. By cruelty of nature they are doomed to a poor life in ignorance. Don’t try to convert them, nature is stronger anyway. Just pity them.

Well, yes - surely that's where things like discussion forums are most valuable though?