Dress for Hockey

[Zoopsia59]

And if it were not for the fact that David has had exactly that style for several years, and that no other dance teachers in London have that style, he'd have a point.
God knows, London floorcraft is rubbish. It really is. But it's not rubbish due to men doing excessive leg-kicks.
In London, leg kicks aren't the danger. Stupidly-executed nuevo movements and total ignorance of LOD are the danger. Trust me on this.
Well, if you create thread specifically to criticise a video of a couple's dancing, some people, strangely, treat that as being, well, a criticism.

Mario's not in London and probably lots of other viewers of this vdieo aren't either. In fact, the people who had direct contact with this couple might be LESS influenced to mimic the surface styling than someone on the other side of the world will be.

Also, most of us on other continents aren't totally educated on exactly what has been done for years in places we haven't danced. Clearly Mario hadn't seen this styling before. Therefore, its likely that other people dancing in the venues he frequents haven't seen it much either, and they certainly aren't DOING it, or it wouldn't be new to him.

And please... oh dear Gawd.. SOMEBODY quote me where Mario criticized this couple or their dancing! He didn't! He expressed dismay at the thought of people COPYING this styling on a social floor after seeing it on a You tube video! This is something we've ALL complained about! Why is everyone having a problem with Mario doing it in this context?

What difference does it make that people in London aren't doing it and that it isn't a problem THERE? Do you think that people 3000 miles away will say to themselves that since people in London aren't doing it, they won't bother to copy it themselves?

If people think that its totally off base to discuss how flying kicks from leaders might create problems on a social floor, then I don't want to EVER read another post about followers and their over the top boleos!

 

[Zoopsia59]

I've not seen it in London milongas,

he's, well, wrong?

Because there's no evidence that this - which I agree would be a problem - is happening?

Well, I've seen it, so maybe you should accept that what you see in London doesn't represent the whole world and that before you call other people "wrong" for their concerns, you might want to consider that their concerns might be or become legit?

 

[Zoopsia59]

When the peanut gallery sees these new steps it and 'learns' them, it will become dangerous to dance Tango.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VCYWhjQRqY

Since no one else seems to be interested in helping you with this potential problem, I'll throw in my suggestion. YOU have control over how close you get to the leader in front of you (the leader behind you is less likely to be a problem to you with this). Assuming he isn't kicking around AND moving back against LOD, you can always leave space for him to do whatever bonehead move he wants.

If he does both (wild moves and moving against line of dance) frankly, I think you are within your rights to simply exit the floor, waiting for the next song in the tanda to resume dancing at whatever placement feels safe. (be sure to explain toi your partner that it is a safety issue and has nothing to do with her) Whether or re-entering is do'able will depend on how crowded it is.

Its unlikely that a majority of leaders will start mimicking these adornos unless someone comes to town and teaches them to the community as a whole, so it will be a random guy, not everyone. You are not required by the "rules and codes" to remain on the floor near dangerous dancers. Find an "exit ramp" and get off when you can if someone is a menace. You are ALWAYS free to exit the floor during tanda when a song ends, and if circumstances allow, you can do it during a song as well. Just be sure that you aren't creating a problem for the couples behind you as you stop and exit.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Mario's not in London and probably lots of other viewers of this vdieo aren't either. In fact, the people who had direct contact with this couple might be LESS influenced to mimic the surface styling than someone on the other side of the world will be.

And I assume you have some evidence of this?

Is there a sudden epidemic of men flicking their legs up all over the world, yet - strangely - not in the Floorcraft Hell that is London?

And please... oh dear Gawd.. SOMEBODY quote me where Mario criticized this couple or their dancing! He didn't!

I read it as he did. I admit it may be ambiguous, but it reads like a criticism to me. And to Me, for that matter

He expressed dismay at the thought of people COPYING this styling on a social floor after seeing it on a You tube video! This is something we've ALL complained about! Why is everyone having a problem with Mario doing it in this context?

Yeah, funny that - why do you think that's so?

What difference does it make that people in London aren't doing it and that it isn't a problem THERE?

Because this is a video of a London teacher, in a London venue, maybe? Surely if this style were to be picked up anywhere, it'd be where the guy regularly teaches and demonstrates, and where he's been doing so for several years?

Do you think that people 3000 miles away will say to themselves that since people in London aren't doing it, they won't bother to copy it themselves?

No, I think that if this were a problem, it'd have appeared locally first, and probably several years ago, rather than 3,000 miles away.

If people think that its totally off base to discuss how flying kicks from leaders might create problems on a social floor,

No, I don't think that's off base. And neither does anyone else I believe.

But that's not this thread. So feel free to start a thread on that topic.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Well, I've seen it, so maybe you should accept that what you see in London doesn't represent the whole world and that before you call other people "wrong" for their concerns, you might want to consider that their concerns might be or become legit?

If you're going to critique a London teacher, it's completely reasonable to assess their impact based primarily on what their students do in the London area.

What part of that concept don't you get?

Since no one else seems to be interested in helping you with this potential problem

Because he's not asked for help. He's simply made a blanket assertion - and a wrong one - based on a single video.

 

[Zoopsia59]

No, I don't think that's off base. And neither does anyone else I believe.
But that's not this thread. So feel free to start a thread on that topic.

See, that's where we disagree. I think it IS this thread... here's Mario's original post in its entirety:

<<When the peanut gallery sees these new steps it and 'learns' them, it will become dangerous to dance Tango.>>

Absolutely NOTHING about the couple.. Obviously about the dangers of people doing these steps in places where Mario dances (and to my knowledge, he isn't a show dancer, so its not likely that he's worried about a show dancer interfering with his performance; he must mean a milonga.)

As to where Mario is.. its right there in his profile. That's my "evidence". As to who else sees the video.. are you really going to pretend that no one outside a country ever watches videos on You tube from a different country? Do I really need "prove" such an obvious fact of the world wide web? Since Mario isn't in London, that proves it right there. (another)

 

[Zoopsia59]

Yeah, funny that - why do you think that's so?

Personally, I think its because everyone knee-jerked.

Mario has a clear and definite history of posting seeking helpful feedback and guidance. To assume he meant something that he didn't state outright seems contrary to the spirit of this forum that I've always respected and appreciated.

It was the kind of reaction I'd expect to see if Jan had posted it, not someone who has been so forthright in his desire for clarification and help with learning tango first as a beginner when he arrived and now as a developing tanguero.

There was NO critique of this teacher, his teaching or his social dance habits. There was concern that imitating this leader styling will lead to problems.

Just as videos of famous followers have led almost every follower to imitate (at SOME point in their development) Geraldine and Jennifer in their adornos, videos of leaders doing big moves can have the same effect. Whether or not the people are actual students of the dancer is not the point.

Your theory is that those who are directly connected to a teacher will be copying them most. My theory is that getting the teacher's style in context means that they will be less likely to copy only the superficial aspects. I would hope that if the teacher is good, then their students are more likely to understand when and where their stylistic features are appropriate, whereas someone just watching a video would merely copy randomly. I think that's why we have so many followers doing wild boleos and excessive adornments. These people are NOT the direct students of the great followers who developed follower styling. They are the You-tubers who see it and simply mimic it willy nilly.

That's my theory. You don't have to agree, but your dismissal of it outright seems unwarranted. I'll allow that your theory may be the correctone, but we can DISCUSS it.

A respectful discussion of Mario's concern is what is lacking in this thread because a few responders decided he was slamming the people in the video when his actual post did nothing of the sort.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Have we not already had a thread on this board about people who kick high on a social dance floor, with horror stories, rants, venting, and various suggestions on how to deal with the phenomenon?

 

[Lui]

When is want to see good social dancing, I go to a place, where I can sit near the floor and watch good dancers at a normal Milonga. If I go to see some kind of exhibition and maybe even pay an extra entrance fee, they better put up a show. In my eyes it’s the whole point of a show to go beyond average normal day life, in this case calm social dancing, and keep the audience entranced. I would hate to see this censored just because some people don’t get the difference between reality and fiction. If you following that line of though, we better abolish all movies involving violence on TV. What will happen when the “Peanut Gallery” sees Richard III a some theater? – a killing spree!

Mario’s coment gave me the impression, that this couple is doing something inappropriate, even when he didn’t state it that way. It has the implication that the couple might be responsible for the action of it’s imitators. I strongly reject this idea, as it separates the responsibility from the actual wrong doers. Those who have no respect for other couples on the dance floor, don’t need a show for inspiration, they will get stupid ideas just be themselves.

 

[AndaBien]

It would be okay with me if we returned to discussing tango, rather than discussing our discussion of tango.

 

[Lui]

I’m always slightly irritated, when people start to think for others, especially along the line of: “Is this the future of tango ...?” and “Don’t you think this future will be horrible ...?”

I don’t believe that we are slaves to a predetermine future of Tango, I firmly believe everybody can shape it’s own future of Tango. Maybe not on a global level, but surely on a local level. What hinders you to gather some like minded friends and open up your own no-high-kicks respectful dancing Milonga?

I’m therefore not so much concerned what strange ideas other persons will introduce to the dance in the future. I’m completely occupied by luring people into respectful social dancing myself, so I have my own cosy sanctuary within the general Tango community.

 

[dchester]

It would be okay with me if we returned to discussing tango, rather than discussing our discussion of tango.

Geez AndaBien, you and I leave for a few hours and look what happens. I didn't realize what a calming effect that we have on this forum.

PS: before anyone takes offense at my post, the smiley is indicating an attempt an humor (you know to lighten the mood).

:raisebro:

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I’m always slightly irritated, when people start to think for others, especially along the line of: “Is this the future of tango ...?” and “Don’t you think this future will be horrible ...?”

I don’t believe that we are slaves to a predetermine future of Tango, I firmly believe everybody can shape it’s own future of Tango. Maybe not on a global level, but surely on a local level. What hinders you to gather some like minded friends and open up your own no-high-kicks respectful dancing Milonga?

I’m therefore not so much concerned what strange ideas other persons will introduce to the dance in the future. I’m completely occupied by luring people into respectful social dancing myself, so I have my own cosy sanctuary within the general Tango community.

Word.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Hey everyone, how do you think we mods feel?

I still think that this group sets a pretty high standard of "self moderation", and I thank you all for keeping it respectful (almost of the time!), and knowing when to let it go, or introduce some humor, etc.

 

[Mario7]

Why is everyone taking this personally on behalf of this couple as though Mario made a comment about their mutha? He didn't say anything about them at all!

Actually, I was referring to their mutha.:cowboy:
Just kidding, Gee I leave the room for a minute and look what happens!

I just returned from our weekly milonga and wow...my dance partner of 6 weeks wowed everyone especially me!...she just bought a pair of real high heels (not medium jobs) and claims that the higher heels are a big help!...I'm sooo happy for her..wow did she cut a rug!!:cheers: She was doing molinetes like she'd been dancing tango for 4 years! ..breakthru!

Anyway, back to the polemic...if this time next year, we are all dodging guys doing their ornamentation kicks...then this thread was presentient....if not, then it's a relief.

PS..thanks Zoop.