Early Rise

[caw]

We've all been told to use early rise to lead a heel turn. It looks like the book's rendition of this is rise e/o 1, as opposed to com to rise e/o 1 for regular Waltz rise.

However, the book gives that same early rise to pretty much every figure in Foxtrot, including Feather Steps, Three Steps, and Fallaway Reverse Turns.

I've never thought of these steps as having early rise. What do you guys think of the rise in the first step of these figures?

 

[caw]

because in foxtrot there is less overall rise, the amount executed on 1 is enough.

Right, but would you say that the rise in the feather step is the same as the rise in a heel turn, or that the book doesn't adequately distinguish the two (obviously, there isn't that much space in those columns).

 

[madmaximus]

Very strictly speaking, the two rises (feather vs. heel turn) would be different, as the latter incorporates a turn on that first step where the former does not.

But I'd say there is a moment when the two are similar (perhaps up to the point when the lady's feet are side-by-side).

And a point not often paid sufficient attention: the man's toe rise is very minimal as the lady's step is TH (toe/heel).





m

 

[DanceMentor]

It is true that in Foxtrot most figures complete their rise at the end of the slow, the reason being that you are standing over the leg. Then you don't continue to rise beyond that, though this is a common problem that you see where couples have more of a Waltz-like rise in their Foxtrot. I think part of the reason for this is they hold back too much on the slow, and then feel obligated to somewhat "push off" into the quick-quick, resulting in more rise. However, moving into the slow is a down swing (ex. going down the hill). In a sense, the slow is the fastest step in terms of body speed!

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Right, but would you say that the rise in the feather step is the same as the rise in a heel turn, or that the book doesn't adequately distinguish the two (obviously, there isn't that much space in those columns).

I don't feel that the rise is much different, though obviously there are other major differences between the figures.

It is to be noted that by the book, the leader's rise is earlier than the follower's rise on the first half of the reverse turn, which is not true of, say, the feather finish.

 

[vit]

I'm sometimes asking myself, comparing dancing in those old clips of Alex Moore and dancing of today, how accurate those old books with those descriptions can be ...

 

[madmaximus]

I'm sometimes asking myself, comparing dancing in those old clips of Alex Moore and dancing of today, how accurate those old books with those descriptions can be ...

Oh, they're plenty accurate IMO...






m

 

[vit]

Yeah, if the tolerance in interpreting those descriptions is quite wide ...

Just my 0.02€

However, watching Arunas & Katusha in Pursuit Perfection Foxtrot, point where they are highest in feather step, reverse turn, feather finish, 3 step, natural turn is almost exactly at end of first quick (for instance feather step - when RF is just passing LF and commencing the second quick)

 

[DanceMentor]

Yeah, if the tolerance in interpreting those descriptions is quite wide ...

Just my 0.02€

However, watching Arunas & Katusha in Pursuit Perfection Foxtrot, point where they are highest in feather step, reverse turn, feather finish, 3 step, natural turn is almost exactly at end of first quick (for instance feather step - when RF is just passing LF and commencing the second quick)

As I watch something likee the video below, I wouldn't necessarily say I agree. They complete their rise at the end of the slow. There may be a very small additional rise into the quick, but the idea of completing the rise on the first step is apparent.

 

[vit]

No problem, measured first feather step for you. Given are approximate distances from top of his head to the floor, relative to his height, taking into account slight difference in zoom. However, this isn't intended to be scientific measurement or proposed correction of the books - different camera angle would be needed. But some conclusions could be made anyway

- before intro step 1.00
- intro step (LF touching floor) 0.90
- slow (RF touching floor) 0.84
- end of S (LF passing RF) 0.90
- first quick (LF touching floor) 0.94
- end of first quick (RF passing LF) 1.03
- second quick (RF touching floor) 0.90
- end of second quick 0.89

If my measurements are not very wrong, difference between lowest and highest distance from the top of his head to the floor is about 19% his height - much more than I thought .... don't know how high he is, but if it is 180 cm, then the difference is around 34 cm ... wow ... And amount of rise at the end of slow is about 30% of that - not sure I could assume this to be almost complete rise as stated ...

 

[DanceMentor]

I'm 6 feet tall and Arunas is a little shorter than me. I thought he was taller and we measured during a lesson with him and he is just a little shorter, so 180 cm sounds reasonably close.

I get your point. I just put a little more thinking into the way the swing works in foxtrot with the down swing of the slow and the feeling (at least) of finishing the rise at the end of the first step. If this is done well, then a little additional rise is not a big deal, as obviously it is not a hard a fast rule. I think it is more about the understanding of the swing.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

No problem, measured first feather step for you. Given are approximate distances from top of his head to the floor, relative to his height, taking into account slight difference in zoom. However, this isn't intended to be scientific measurement or proposed correction of the books - different camera angle would be needed. But some conclusions could be made anyway

- before intro step 1.00
- intro step (LF touching floor) 0.90
- slow (RF touching floor) 0.84
- end of S (LF passing RF) 0.90
- first quick (LF touching floor) 0.94
- end of first quick (RF passing LF) 1.03
- second quick (RF touching floor) 0.90
- end of second quick 0.89

If my measurements are not very wrong, difference between lowest and highest distance from the top of his head to the floor is about 19% his height - much more than I thought .... don't know how high he is, but if it is 180 cm, then the difference is around 34 cm ... wow ... And amount of rise at the end of slow is about 30% of that - not sure I could assume this to be almost complete rise as stated ...

To me it looks from your numbers like the slow starts at 0.84 and ends at 0.94, which is definitely a rise. The first quick starts at 0.94 and ends at 0.90, but goes as high as 1.03 in the middle; I think that's reasonably characterized as "up" in a one word description. The second quick lowers from 0.90 presumably back to 0.84, mostly after the midpoint (which you characterize as "end of"), which seems reasonably characterized as "lower" in the book.

 

[vit]

Well, maybe my understanding how to interpret the book is wrong, because it's a long time since I stopped dancing ballroom actively.

Anyway, book states rise at the end of slow, and Larinda said that amount of rise executed on 1 is enough, so I understand that book doesn't prescribe further rising after end of S (like in the case of waltz where it states commence rising at the end of 1). But on this video, body continues rising from moment when LF is passing RF (end of S) to moment when RF is passing LF (end of first Q) and it's about 70% of whole difference between lowest and highest position occurring from beginning to the end of the Q