East Coast Swing - Starter Step Question

[Tumbleweed]

I was having a lively discussion with others at the local friday night social dance during a intermission of the music.
We were discussing basic (1-2-Rock Step), syncopated (1& 2& Rock Step) and triple (1&2 3&4 5-6) East Coast Swing.
The discussion centered around starting with the rock step on the One-Beat or the 1 'step' on the One-Beat.

I perceive the dance better phrases to the music when I start on the One-Beat with the 1 'step'. Some agreed and others all but turned purple insisting East Coast Swing starts on the rock step.
Is this a East Coast vs Midwest vs West Coast mind-set or am I missing something in the interpretation of East Coast Swing ? Or, is this a Fred Astaire vs Arthur Murray difference ?

Look forward to feedback and clarifications there might be, Thanks in advance.

 

[opendoor]

..were discussing basic (1-2-Rock Step), syncopated (1& 2& Rock Step) and triple (1&2 3&4 5-6)..

Hi Tumbleweed, the goal should be to be able to lead all variations confidently, right? But if I have to dance with a follower for the first time, and I don't yet know how well she can dance, then I start with the rock step on 5-6. That's simply the easiest and most concise way to begin from my experience.

..I perceive the dance better phrases to the music when I start on the One-Beat with the 1 'step'..

The ECS basic is a 6-count pattern, while the music is 8-count (4/4). Therefore, there isn't that one phrase at all. The dancers can accentuate certain moments in music with the placement of the rock step, single or triple steps. They shouldn't dance like a clockwork, but rather listen to the music and adjust their step patterns accordingly on the fly.

Is this a East Coast vs Midwest vs West Coast mind-set or am I missing something..

No, its simply a question of basic musicality. Social dancing should be fun, not a chore.

 

[fiesta0618]

Is this a East Coast vs Midwest vs West Coast mind-set or am I missing something in the interpretation of East Coast Swing ? Or, is this a Fred Astaire vs Arthur Murray difference ?

I suspect it is a miniculture difference, like you say. I am a principally Ballroom dancer, and in our flavor of ECS there are no rules at all about how to begin.

 

[ralf]

Also keep in mind that after the first six counts, there isn't any practical difference between rock step first and rock step last since the one of the patterns drifts against the one of the music. The rock step becomes the time during which you finish up any motion remaining from the previous slow-slow (or triple-step, triple-step) and pre-lead the next pattern as needed.

 

[Greybeard]

Rock step first seems to be new. Possibly being pulled in from Jive, which does start on the rock.

 

[opendoor]

Possibly being pulled in from Jive, which does start on the rock.

During my standard and international Latin period in the 80s, I always started Jive with the triple step.

 

[Reach]

Presently compete in International Latin, also Standard, in the USA. We start Jive with the rock step.
At different times, and/or different regions, it may have varied.
Am learning American Rhythm. At that studio, an independent studio, we start Swing with the triple step. Understand that others start ECS with the rock step.
As follower, I have to pay attention to the leader!

 

[Steve Pastor]

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 music count with THE Down beat in bold. 3 is a "softer' down beat
1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 step count with count 1 of a six count pattern

Hopefully the above shows what ralf referred to with "drifts against the one of the music."

Going WAY back to the foundations of dancing to swing, when Frankie Manning did videos with Erin Stevens, he started patterns with a rock step. But, he also is on record saying that the Savoy dancers didn't count, they just danced to the music. At one point the women started doing 2 swivel steps pretty much in place while the men did the "rock step."
I don't have any early East Coast step sheets, but Sophisticated Swing, which doesn't have aslot has the rock step at the end of patterns. And early West Coast (1954) started with 123, not the 1 2 rock step.

Butler's Encyclopedia from the 70s & 80s started SWING (American) with the slow slow. They had Western Swing, too, but no East Coast or Eastern.

I couldn't find East Coast or Eastern in Skippy Blair's 1978 book, but in her 1995 book, she begins East Coast with the rock step.
BTW, according to Blair and others, 8 count patterns in East Coast make it possible to hit the beginning of the phrases in the music if you want.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

American Rhythm. At that studio, an independent studio, we start Swing with the triple step.

That’s how I was introduced to it too, at a ballroom studio that started as a FADS franchise but has since turned independent. At our studio’s social dances, when I danced with one of the teachers, they would always start with the triple step, which I could follow because it’s what I expected. But any time I danced with someone who had learned ECS from somewhere other than our studio, if they started with a rock step, my brain sort of shorted out (like trying to start a car with a dead battery…you just hear a repeated clicking sound but nothing happens), and I couldn’t follow them.

To be a good social dancer - which I am most emphatically NOT - it’s necessary to recognize both & be able to follow without “expecting” what’s coming next.

 

[Greybeard]

To be a good social dancer - which I am most emphatically NOT - it’s necessary to recognize both & be able to follow without “expecting” what’s coming next.

It's also necessary to realize that the person you are leading is expecting something different and adjust your leading.

I remember dancing Hustle with one young lady where I was doing a three count and she was doing a four count. When I realized this, I was able to switch to four count and the rest of the dance was pleasant.

Starting with the triple while partner is starting with the rock would really throw things off. It might require an audible: "Did you start on the rock? I usually start on the triple. Can we choose one and start over?" Or one partner can hold or advance footwork to get on the partner's rock. (This probably works better if the leader gives the partner a spin or under arm turn and have both of them come out on the rock.)

 

[Steve Pastor]

More history...
Arthur Murray started "Double Lindy Hop" with a triple in his1942 and 1947 books. In1954 the same start with the triple was renamed Triple Lindy Hop.
Bonus... Murray was distinguishing between Eastern and Western by 1949.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

That’s how I was introduced to it too, at a ballroom studio that started as a FADS franchise but has since turned independent. At our studio’s social dances, when I danced with one of the teachers, they would always start with the triple step, which I could follow because it’s what I expected. But any time I danced with someone who had learned ECS from somewhere other than our studio, if they started with a rock step, my brain sort of shorted out (like trying to start a car with a dead battery…you just hear a repeated clicking sound but nothing happens), and I couldn’t follow them.

To be a good social dancer - which I am most emphatically NOT - it’s necessary to recognize both & be able to follow without “expecting” what’s coming next.

I started at a studio that was formerly an Arthur Murray, and was also taught to start with the first triple. I think this is most natural for triple swing because one starts by moving both one’s own and one’s partner’s weight in the same direction.

Starting with the rock step in, say, international rumba, which is common, also moves the partners’ weights in the same direction, but starting with the rock steps in triple swing would start by moving the partners’ weights at some weird and, to me, unintuitive angle to each other.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I appreciate all the responses, feedback and information. I personally like starting 'forward' on the 1, aka the down beat. If I see that a Follower has preference for starting on the rock-step I'm happy to oblige that as well. As one says, dancing is to be fun. Glad to know I'm didn't miss a philosophical change to acceptable practices.

 

[vit]

In ballroom, we indeed used to start with rock step, but on beats 7 and 8, so on 1 it was actually first triple ...