Embrace...open or close?

[JournalInTime]

I recollect one well-known exemplar being asked about doing some move they were teaching 'closed' rather than how they were demonstrating. They demonstrated both (impeccably!), but explained that it just looked better to them (and most there) the way they chose.

Yes, it's important to know where a movement works best, technically and aesthetically, even if it's possible at any distance and in any embrace.

But there's a big difference between that and saying: I only dance open hold.

Again, yes. I blather nonstop about how I dance closed, sharing weight, blah, blah, blah, . . . but all of that is "for the most part." I very definitely open up for certain movements because they look better there. Indeed, the act of opening or closing can serve as an ornament or even a step in itself! Do it on the music and make a show of projecting your partner away or wrapping them in your hug.

Interesting on the sacadas, enrosque/lapiz as well, since that really only works well if a follower steps (giro) round close rather than big 'open' steps as you tend to get from a beginner learning a giro.

Lots of people insist on trying that stuff open, but it always looks nasty. I've also had people tell me I can't do those things when dancing apilado, which just tells me that they have no idea how to do it themselves.

This is a very important step in development, good dancers don't dance open or closed embrace, black or white. The hold is adapted to the needs of the dance. In particular, the follower must learn to use the leader's upper right arm as a slide.

I agree with all of this 100%. We can debate the "good" in "good dancers," but I'd take it to mean "dancers who have a good number of tools for expressing any kind of music."

 

[JournalInTime]

And the leader must allow their right arm to move around the follower - if you adopt that particular style.

I was taught to do that . . . and not in uncertain terms! Leading with a fixed right arm was described to me – by several teachers – as an error. All the teachers who danced mainly as followers usually added the words "restrictive" and "uncomfortable" for a leader's right arm that remains glued in place. The arms of both dancers need to be able to slide on the closed side.

 

[JournalInTime]

That depends on the 'style' and moves that you allow in that particular 'closed' hold variant. The follower can't 'slide' their left hand on the leader's right upper arm if there's no flexibility (as adopted in some specific closed styles). Maybe your abrazo allows that, but I've seen some which don't (maybe just a poor lead!)

I think people get too literal-minded about embrace.

Nobody experienced dances truly closed or truly open at all times . . . there's always some variability in distance. Most people I know who claim to dance with their arm in a fixed position on the closed side do not; it slides up and down, in and out. I've yet to see a truly fixed leader's right or follower's left hand, except among beginners who haven't yet learned that's restrictive.

The matter of upper-body expression is more complex. I sometimes change my arm position on either side not to lead anything, but to express the music. I've been known to let go to draw a little figure in the air, just as an ornament. This extends to the head: facial expressions, turning the head, etc. Personally, I like to see people interpreting the music with more than just their lower body, but I understand that some find that too "show" for their liking.

 

[Brummbaer]

Nobody experienced dances truly closed or truly open at all times

Indeed. As an exercise, but occasionally in an actual dance, we have done some 'move', or even a section of a dance, with only one arm contact, or even no arms or no direct contact. Apart from my wife, there's one other follower, and a teacher, I'd do that with. It's only useful as an exercise in leading, or sometimes as some relief for arm muscles (probably caused by a temporary(!) poor abrazo with some follower).

Personally I don't go with the 'one true way' of abrazo, just 'closed' in a style as the follower wishes.

 

[Elian]

Intimate, sensual, emotional, inappropriate, all this is possible, a matter of personal feelings.
Is anything or anyone preventing you from dancing the way you feel comfortable?

@itwillhappen Yeah it can be a lot of emotions in the same cup, thankfully I usually dance comfortable as I have described, what I cannot stand of a woman it's when she puts her hand or arm on my shoulder or even worst when she put it covering my whole back or touching my neck

 

[Brummbaer]

what I cannot stand of a woman it's when she puts her hand or arm on my shoulder or even worst when she put it covering my whole back or touching my neck

Then perhaps a serious consideration of whether you're suited to Argentine Tango, or even dance in any form?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

@itwillhappen Yeah it can be a lot of emotions in the same cup, thankfully I usually dance comfortable as I have described, what I cannot stand of a woman it's when she puts her hand or arm on my shoulder or even worst when she put it covering my whole back or touching my neck

Hmm. Well, given the nature of Argentine tango, its history, and how it has been danced, I'm also thinking that you may be in the wrong dance. Tango is very much about intimacy with your partner on the dance floor. It's about the embrace, and being in close contact with your dance partner. If you're not comfortable with that, maybe something like salsa would suit you better.

 

[opendoor]

cannot stand.. touching my neck..

But it is a very normal tango figure or pose. She just doesn't dance it with her feet, but rather she accentuates the music with her left hand on your neck. The gesture is important. Actually, tango wouldn't be tango without the hand at that point, Elian ! And remember, many figures and poses in tango have a ritualized erotic background. It's not disreputable, it's pleasant instead. And because it's ritualized, it's non-binding. This stuff is part of the DNA of tango.

 

[noobster]

Oh dear, we're into mansplaining again. We need some follower input

Ok I'll bite. Yes most of my dances flow between open and closed as it suits the moment.

I have had a few dances with leaders who offered open and remained open the whole time. It is a little harder to follow like that (following in closed is almost effortless), and it gives a bit of a feeling of formality or reserve, as if the leader is unwilling to give himself over fully to the joy of the dance. It's fine. But it's not, like, the stuff of daydreams.

 

[noobster]

Then perhaps a serious consideration of whether you're suited to Argentine Tango, or even dance in any form?

This is my thought also. Or at least, partner dance. Perhaps Elian would be happier with a solo dance form?

 

[JournalInTime]

Then perhaps a serious consideration of whether you're suited to Argentine Tango, or even dance in any form?

I hate to pile on, but that's how I feel, too. To paraphrase words my coach has said to me not once but many times:

"You're going to end up tangling legs, squishing boobs, brushing every part of two bodies by accident, and spending 10-12 minutes at a time in a position that often feels like sex clothed and standing. If any of that bothers you, you've picked the wrong dance."​

She was exaggerating to make a point (coaches tend to do that), but on some level she wasn't wrong.

Even tango lessons – which are the opposite of sexy, unless your thing is having someone talking at you and making you restart your movement 100 times in a studio full of dust and sweaty shoe smell – require a huge degree of comfort with touch. My coach doesn't ask my or my partner's permission to put her hand on a rear end and shove it into place, or to put both of my or my partner's hands on her bra line and say, "Now feel what my ribcage does when I dissociate in this step," or to slide her hand between my partner and me while we dance to feel where the tension is . . . she just does it. Asking consent each time would immensely retard progress.

There's likely a reason why most of the contact improv community here dances tango. And at least here, tango people of all genders and sexual orientations hug – a real, deep hug – in greeting. At some point you just have to accept that tango is as much about touch as it is about music. If you're touch-averse, tango is a terrible choice.

 

[opendoor]

..Perhaps Elian would be happier with a solo dance form?

I just wrote about the ritualized eroticism, so that Elian doesn't have to change dances. He has to learn that these gestures simply are irrelevant fake elements that have no real counterpart in everyday life.

 

[itwillhappen]

@itwillhappen Yeah it can be a lot of emotions in the same cup, thankfully I usually dance comfortable as I have described, what I cannot stand of a woman it's when she puts her hand or arm on my shoulder or even worst when she put it covering my whole back or touching my neck

If I could not stand physical closeness, I would largely avoid changing partners, i.e. show up with a similar structured partner from the classes and mainly dance with her. The risks of misunderstandings with foreign partners would be too high for me.

 

[David_In_CA]

This is my thought also. Or at least, partner dance. Perhaps Elian would be happier with a solo dance form?

I've been leading Lindy Hop and WCS for a long time now -- I doubt that any of those contacts has happened more than a handful of times. Well, shoulder either happens almost never, or all the time. Clavicle area, almost never. Upper arm, all the time. So if that kind of contact is ok, the swing dancers might work for Elian.

 

[itwillhappen]

But it is a very normal tango figure or pose. She just doesn't dance it with her feet, but rather she accentuates the music with her left hand on your neck. The gesture is important. Actually, tango wouldn't be tango without the hand at that point, Elian ! And remember, many figures and poses in tango have a ritualized erotic background. It's not disreputable, it's pleasant instead. And because it's ritualized, it's non-binding. This stuff is part of the DNA of tango.

Where I dance doesn't seem to be common knowledge yet. Do you perhaps have links to workshops, videos and descriptions of this type of women's (only?) technique? Also related to syncopation, 3-3-2 and other types of play?