Encuentros - pros and cons

[opendoor]

@itwillhappen @opendoor Now you're both becoming cryptical to me

I was first with cryptical !

 

[Bailango]

What are these copyright fees in Germany? I never heard of it. I assume a percentage of entry fee has to be send to some agency for publicly using copyright music (for dancing in this context). I assume that in the USA this would be considered a fair-use (it is a legal term in copyright law)) since the clubs are not required to pay anything to any organization for playing music.

That raises interesting questions. How do you decide what is the fee amount? Is it a fix percent of what is charged?

How does it work in case the event is free. Say an outdoor milonga.

When does this copyright fees get triggered. How much is it actually.

What is the enforcement mechanism.

What if the music played is not copyrighted or copyright has expired.

 

[TTanguero]

assume that in the USA this would be considered a fair-use (it is a legal term in copyright law)) since the clubs are not required to pay anything to any organization for playing music.

Clubs in the US absolutely do need a licence to play music in public.

Fair use is something else entirely. It's when you have a legitimate reason to use some portion of copyrighted material for purposes permitted by copyright law. An example would be that a book reviewer can quote some text from the book as part of their review.

 

[itwillhappen]

Hmm, then I guess I was indeed unclear. I meant that when discussing encuentros, emotions can be triggered.

In my opinion, tango has no values of its own, values of the surrounding culture are imposed on it. And the values of the Argentine culture of the 1940s are mostly rejected outright in today's Northern Europe. It can also be personal values, although these are surprisingly often congruent with personal interests. In particular, the free choice of dance partners often clashes with equality for everyone.

And how likely is it that someone aims to visit milongas in order to support young talent development programs for musicans with copyright fees paid by the organizer?

 

[pianistamediano]

In particular, the free choice of dance partners often clashes with equality for everyone.

It's a perennial issue that will never go away, I think, despite free choice being the obvious ideal. Why on earth would people seek to impose obligations on dancers? Without mutual desire to dance with each other, there is no tango. Wanting to dance with someone who doesn't want to dance with you is one thing which we all experience, but placing pressure on, or even obligating that person to dance with you is just ridiculous.

 

[itwillhappen]

It's a perennial issue that will never go away, I think, despite free choice being the obvious ideal. Why on earth would people seek to impose obligations on dancers? Without mutual desire to dance with each other, there is no tango.

That's the relaxed view of someone who usually finds enough dance partners. If you have to give up the leisure activity because that's not the case - or you then have to shut down a milonga you organize - the views are often completely different.

Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with former beginner class mates?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a wallflower?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a stranger?
Shouldn't you (ok, not you) also show solidarity with other women?
Shouldn't you also go to a local milonga to give the community "something back"?
...

 

[TTanguero]

Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with former beginner class mates?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a wallflower?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a stranger?
Shouldn't you also go to a local milonga to give the community "something back"?

For me, the answer to those type of questions is this ...

We should never dance with somebody when we don't want to do so. However, we can want to do so for many different reasons – which could include any of the above.

And ...

Whatever the reason we dance with someone, we should do it only if we are able to give ourselves completely to that dance with that person – in whatever sense is appropriate in that situation. Eg. Dancing with a beginner, 'giving myself completely' might mean doing all that I can to give that beginner a great experience, while also learning things about my own lead.

What is to be avoided at all costs is dancing out of a sense of resentful obligation.

 

[itwillhappen]

Honestly, even with a translation app I have no clue.
-It cannot be a romantic fantasy. An encuentro is the wrong format for this. If you're looking for something like that, go to Poreč.

Agreed.

-Compensating for the lack of good dances can't be the solution either. We men don't have it.

Networking means that you are interested in the needs of a certain environment and take them into account. Recently I was at a quite “cosy” event without any explicit or implicit barriers. And in Northern Europe that means leaders are in short supply. It's rare that I'm able to respond to three needs at once, but here it was the case.

• A double-role tanguera had the special situation that as there was an imbalance, many women would literally pursue her. We have agreed to share travel and hotel rooms costs for a role-balanced milonga further away. And as I wanted to attend on the our back the semi-private milonga (see above), which had previously been "invisible" to her, she had no issues with that. On the contrary, she immediately started her own organizer networking. Okay, I then pointed out another special milonga that she could have seen, but that no one is advertising. Of course we go there together, and she immediately started her own organizer networking...
  
  
• A tanguera was bored because good leaders were in short supply. We had already registered for an encuentro in three months, where she and a partner were rejected last year. Well, we went to a restaurant and had a good meal, and we danced the last couple of tandas together.
  
  
• Another tanguera was bored because good leaders were in short supply. Maybe an encuentro would be suited for her? Yes, yes, but unfortunately she got rejected without a partner. Okay, I said, give me your phone number, there will be an encuentro in five months, registration is next week. Do you think she started a moral discussion with me about encuentros ... or took out her smartphone?

-Or is it the chance for networking and to get acquainted to the organizer?

Encuentro organizers definitely feel the need to find suitable “counterweights” for the women on their waiting list.

 

[pianistamediano]

That's the relaxed view of someone who usually finds enough dance partners. If you have to give up the leisure activity because that's not the case - or you then have to shut down a milonga you organize - the views are often completely different.

Not at every milonga, unfortunately.

I will just stop dancing tango in my city if I cannot have enough good dances. I say good dances, meaning sufficiently enjoyable tandas, because the dancer population here is large enough that I could dance every single tanda at a reasonably busy milonga if I prized quantity over quality.

Besides, even when I am having a bad time, I consciously prevent myself from blaming others for not wanting to dance with me. There's about two or three milongas in the last few weeks where I recall sitting for two hours without a dance, and not because I wanted to do so. It is what it is.

Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with former beginner class mates?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a wallflower?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a stranger?
Shouldn't you (ok, not you) also show solidarity with other women?
Shouldn't you also go to a local milonga to give the community "something back"?

1. Do it all the time, it's fun! (To be fair, only one's in the same city as I am, but I do that whenever I meet the others, even if we're not the most amazing dancers in the world.)

2. Do it whenever the music is okay (doesn't happen often because most DJs are mediocre), not too demanding, and I've noticed them sitting for quite a while. But I'm not going to dance with them over and over again every single milonga if I don't enjoy it enough, naturally.

3. Of course, how else am I supposed to find more favourite followers?!

4. I take offense, sir! I just followed for a whole milonga tanda last week!

5. Do that all the time

(Naturally, all these are dependent on my mood and circumstances.)

 

[pianistamediano]

But above all, imposing obligations on people to participate unwillingly in any aspect of a leisure activity is wrong.

 

[opendoor]

That's the relaxed view of someone who usually finds enough dance partners. If you have to give up the leisure activity because that's not the case - or you then have to shut down a milonga you organize..

Here too, I don't understand your concerns. We all here are experienced and sought-after dancers. And no one will give up his hobby or the position of an organizer just because of deficits. Unfortunately, the reality is the other way round, most dancers tend to grossly overestimate themselves and are immune to any criticism. And if someone should be unsure whether he or she will be invited at an encuentro, you should take a dancer from your peer group with you as a quality witness.

So why are you making yourself an advocate for a group of people that doesn't even exist?

 

[itwillhappen]

You amaze me. I would have thought that back then at the time when you took lessons from the best tango teachers around the world, wanted to become one yourself, and of course wanted to dance at the best events with the best women, you were networking very intensively.

“We all here” will hardly be representative - I would roughly estimate the ratio of men:women here to be 4:1, which hardly reflects the reality of tango, and we are also relatively few. I know a lot of people, especially women, who only consider attending a milonga if they expect to find some of their “peer group” there. Classic networking, of course, but also means that they will stop dancing tango as soon as they will not find anyone.

 

[itwillhappen]

We should never dance with somebody when we don't want to do so. However, we can want to do so for many different reasons – which could include any of the above.

Of course, and I do some of the points too. But things turn around when you think it's "right" and others should also do it "right" so that something develops "better".

 

[opendoor]

Classic networking.. means that they will stop dancing tango..

Well, I actually was thinking more about making oneself known to the organizers so that one could end up on the set list of foreign DJs next year.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with former beginner class mates?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a wallflower?
Shouldn't you also dance a tanda with a stranger?
Shouldn't you (ok, not you) also show solidarity with other women?
Shouldn't you also go to a local milonga to give the community "something back"?

I don't think it's ever a question of "should" here. Also, in all cases, it depends.