Encuentros - pros and cons

[itwillhappen]

How that? I dance mostly with the same age group 50’s through 70’s regardless of the type of event. Although at this event I had a couple of tandas with younger guys but only after the floor started thinning out and there was space for some more energetic technical moves.

in fact I made the observation that the audience was clearly divided tall / short, under 35 / above 50 (nobody looked like they were in between), UNTIL there were less crowds and it mixed up more.

I was at the last event with an acquaintance and her boyfriend. She's what I call a "happymaker", whatever comes, she dances to the end of the event with various partners. While her boyfriend has been busy with his smartphone for a long time and I ponder the local hierarchies.

I can draw little conclusions from it, it's just the way it is. I think it raises more insight to think about an age group between 55 and 65, people who are beginning to experience their limitations.

 

[Miradamiranda]

…While her boyfriend has been busy with his smartphone for a long time and I ponder the local hierarchies.

Case in point. Just because an event is role balanced, it doesn’t mean there are better chances for the women to get dances, since the guys that are there often come out of obligation to their ladies.

I think it raises more insight to think about an age group between 55 and 65, people who are beginning to experience their limitations​

​

Haha, speak for yourself I’m in that age group, although just barely, and I’m the last one dancing with full energy till the very end. I all too often don’t have opportunities to dance, so I make the most of it when I can. I used to think that the reason I get a lot of dances towards the later hours was because people had finally noticed me dance and wanted to dance with me. But now I’m afraid it’s maybe only because the better dancers had run out of other partners with energy…. And it’s the energetic dancers who hold out for the really interesting music that appears when there’s more space on the floor.
The other day, I literally danced non-stop in the wee hours between, say, 2.30-5.30am ( after 11+ hours of dancing on crowded floors) and I had so many guys trying to get my attention, the same guys who had ignored me or outright declined my miradas the whole night and the day before.

 

[pianistamediano]

But now I’m afraid it’s maybe only because the better dancers had run out of other partners with energy…. And it’s the energetic dancers who hold out for the really interesting music that appears when there’s more space on the floor.

Perhaps it's more a consequence of there being less people as the night goes on, which means they tend to notice you more on a less crowded floor, whereas standing out at peak hours is just really difficult in general.

Although that's an interesting tidbit about the music. It's true that DJs tend to play more experimental tandas later in the night, but I have noticed an alarming trend to play lots of high-energy tandas in the last few hours of an event, whereas it should be the other way round because people are generally more tired than. And ending with something like a '50s D'Arienzo tanda... Well, just not my cup of tea after 12 hours.

 

[pianistamediano]

Great. For me, a festival here (in Germany) means so many women to choose from that it's no longer nice. And the dancing skills are also very mixed at both, men and women, to put it diplomatically.

It's just so hard to sit and watch followers dance to see if they might be enjoyable to dance with at an event with that many people. Although a festival tends to attract quite the variety of people in terms of skill and experience, since you tend to have the (un?)holy trinity of bombastic performers, live bands, and a severe overdose of workshops.

Perhaps considering the goals of people who attend festivals versus events with (at most) live orquestas might make more sense:

People attend festivals to dance (to live music or not), watch performers, and/or take workshops with said performers. So a multitude of reasons other than simply dancing, and therefore less of a focus on dancing? And festivals have something to offer to people at almost any level - I went to my first festival as a relative beginner about two years after I started, and still had a great time.

People who attend marathons/encuentros/etc. go there mainly to dance. So perhaps a more singular purpose/focus on dancing.

(Ignoring, of course, reasons such as atmosphere, friends, city, et cetera.)

 

[Miradamiranda]

This particular festival definitely had a bombastic aspect. The workshops and performances were with people like Ruben Veliz, Chicho Frumbuli and more of that ultra high caliber. And live bands Beltango and Bandonegro. But there were two halls and enough hours for dancing. So you could pick and choose. But definitely so big you could get lost in the shuffle. I thought the level was very high.

Next month I’m trying a different kind of festival with all live music. No workshops. Not role balanced. Although you might think there’d be quite some people who want to just sit and watch, what I’m hearing from others who have been there, is that it attracts the kinds of dancers who have wide open ears and pay attention to and appreciate the music, as opposed to those dancers who only want to dance to the exact same recordings of staples that they are most used to and comfortable with.
One high level dancer told me he’d blindly invite up anyone there because the level was so high you couldn’t go wrong.

 

[pianistamediano]

Not role balanced.

If possible, do let us know what the balance of roles/gender is like there, and what people's experiences of getting dances (easy, difficult, etc.) were like! If the organizer doesn't balance roles, then I'm guessing that it'll have a higher proportion of followers, maybe even higher than the usual imbalance, like most milongas with a healthy amount of people tend to be.

One high level dancer told me he’d blindly invite up anyone there because the level was so high you couldn’t go wrong.

That sounds amazing! On one hand, that's true; with sufficiently skilled/experienced dancers, even if the music isn't as good as you want it to be, it'll still be an enjoyable dance. On the other hand, you're always going to gel better with some dancers over others for certain orquestas in certain periods, depending on mood, atmosphere and energy levels of course. You can kind of see indications if you're just sitting and watching, but of course you never really know for sure unless you dance with that person. So I'd guess that as the event goes on, some people start to be more discerning like that.

 

[Bailango]

If possible, do let us know what the balance of roles/gender is like there, and what people's experiences of getting dances (easy, difficult, etc.) were like! If the organizer doesn't balance roles, then I'm guessing that it'll have a higher proportion of followers, maybe even higher than the usual imbalance, like most milongas with a healthy amount of people tend to be.

I will like to hear from those in USA. At major tango cities along the west coast from Vancouver to LA/SD, I haven’t noticed higher proportion of women like being talked about here frequently. Same in NYC once I danced there long back. Some days slightly more women, some days slightly more men. Dancing at a few local milongas in Paris and Berlin, too I don’t remember registering too many followers to be called imbalance.

At crowded milongas does balance even matter unless it is very lopsided?

 

[pianistamediano]

I will like to hear from those in USA. At major tango cities along the west coast from Vancouver to LA/SD, I haven’t noticed higher proportion of women like being talked about here frequently. Same in NYC once I danced there long back. Some days slightly more women, some days slightly more men. Dancing at a few local milongas in Paris and Berlin, too I don’t remember registering too many followers to be called imbalance.

At crowded milongas does balance even matter unless it is very lopsided?

I tend to see more ladies "ironing" their seats, many with unhappy expressions on their faces and/or crossing their arms, than I do men, in the events that I have been to, even ones where a quick count and estimate indicated a more or less equal number of both roles, taking into account what roles I have seen people dancing of course (there is usually at least one lady leader).

I think it kind of matters, insofar as keeping people happy with the dances they're getting. But then on one end, you have people who just want to dance as much as possible, and on the other you have people who won't dance unless the music is just right and they can dance with their partner of choice. Or the few who are content with one amazing tanda, which satisfies them for the night and leaves them with a dreamy smile. So I'm unsure actually.

But people who dance one role definitely do not want to compete for a limited number of dancers in the other role, which becomes increasingly unpleasant with a greater imbalance.

Even when the roles are roughly balanced, you tend to see a (small?) group of leaders having their pick of followers and dancing whenever they want to, young/attractive and/or excellent followers dancing almost every tanda, and still plenty of ladies sitting down unless it was live music, with some visibly impatient to dance or looking around actively for leaders. Some leaders sitting/standing about. Lastly, some leaders/followers who have not found the right partner for that particular tanda at that time. We of course ignore the people who are eating, drinking, resting, socializing, or watching the floor.

If I had to give an estimate, it was probably about 10% of followers sitting down every tanda? At least, that was what I observed at an ostensibly role-balanced tango marathon.

And this is only a wild guess from observation in general, which may very well be wrong, but female followers tend to want to dance more than male leaders, ceteris paribus. I am quite possibly biased, given that I tend to observe followers' body language more than leaders' for obvious reasons.

 

[pianistamediano]

Personally, I don't really like milongas where there are too many followers compared to leaders; I might have a higher chance of dancing with the follower I'd like to dance with, but I also feel the pressure to dance a tanda I don't want to dance. I feel kind of bad for the ladies who have been sitting down more than they want to, but on the other hand, I have to feel their gazes digging into me and I have to avoid their eyes, which makes for an uncomfortable and awkward time.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I’m at plenty of milongas with way too many women sitting around frustrated, but at special events, surprisingly it mostly evens out, regardless of wether there’s a role balance or not, is my experience. This goes for both the US and Europe.

Well, frankly, I can’t imagine how a guy feeling awkward for declining is anywhere near the frustration of spending a lot of effort dolling up and only getting a single pity dance all evening. Take a risk once in a while! I know excellent excellent dancers who don’t get that first dance chance.

And then you have those followers who get a disproportionate number of dances. So a headcount is not enough. It’s definitely a vicious circle. If you sit too long you get frustrated and then you send negative vibes. Even if you put on that fake smile and work the body language. Also, a lot of women sit and wait around instead of being proactive, but it can be humiliating to try too hard also. Many of us start leading just to help each other get out of the seat.

If I know absolutely nobody at an event, I make sure I do NOT sit down, because the guys need to judge my height, being tall. Many short guys are scared of taking the risk because they make assumptions that a tall follower will be too unwieldy or heavy. So, I’ve learned the hard way to turn around a disadvantage to actually using my height to get that first dance. The tallest guys are the only ones willing to almost always take a risk with a tall follower they haven’t seen dance. Just this weekend I had two tall guys outright tell me they asked me up purely because of my height without seeing me dance. I’d imagine the same advantage would be there for the really short girls to attempt to get their first dance with the short guys. I’m only talking about getting that first dance to be seen. Now, everyone in the middle have the advantage of being able to dance with all sizes. Once they’ve been seen.

The further I get into an event, the shorter my partners become Once I get a good dance with a rather short guy, other short guys start approaching because I’ve proven I can hold my balance and that I’m not looking down on them. (Figuratively and literally.)

 

[TTanguero]

I have to feel their gazes digging into me and I have to avoid their eyes, which makes for an uncomfortable and awkward time.

This is exactly why I think doing something about the imbalance is in the interests of leaders and followers alike.

 

[Tango Distance]

I will like to hear from those in USA. At major tango cities along the west coast from Vancouver to LA/SD, I haven’t noticed higher proportion of women like being talked about here frequently. ...

I have done about 25 milongas at 7 locations in Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego counties, mostly in the last 2 years. Women easily outnumber men in general. Maybe 2 of the events were close to gender balanced.

 

[pianistamediano]

Well, frankly, I can’t imagine how a guy feeling awkward for declining is anywhere near the frustration of spending a lot of effort dolling up and only getting a single pity dance all evening. Take a risk once in a while! I know excellent excellent dancers who don’t get that first dance chance.

Perhaps some clarification! I usually don't dance a tanda if I don't feel like I would enjoy the music at that particular moment, but I look around if I like the music. I don't really decline ladies if they approach me, and I have danced with every lady that mistook my cabeceo for a follower sitting near them to be directed towards themselves, with much apologies, but I might ask to dance with them in the next tanda instead. I feel awkward because I have to avoid their eyes in order to prevent any unintended invitations.

The only followers I actively avoid are the ones whom I see hanging onto their leader, unbalancing them, not musical enough, etc. in such a way that I cannot attribute those things to the leader, and I'd honestly sit and listen to the music while watching the dancers on the pista rather than dance with them. Otherwise, I don't mind taking a chance if I'm not too exhausted and like the current tanda.

And then you have those followers who get a disproportionate number of dances.

Indeed, but they get those dances for any number of obvious reasons, so it is what it is.

If you sit too long you get frustrated and then you send negative vibes. Even if you put on that fake smile and work the body language.

It doesn't even have to be that obvious; often what attracts my attention is a follower moving her body to the music, even while seated.

For me, the music is paramount. I will decline even a close friend's verbal invitation if the music does not agree enough with me and my mood (with exceptions, naturally). Maybe she thinks I could still give her an enjoyable time, and that might be true, but at that point I would be giving more than the dance gives me, which I am not inclined to do too often.

Beyond some point of imbalance, it feels like I become more of a commodity than a person who is a leader. That is, I get the feeling that some followers want to dance with me just because they would rather be dancing than sitting in that tanda, and not because they want to dance with me. And I don't like that feeling.

 

[pianistamediano]

This is exactly why I think doing something about the imbalance is in the interests of leaders and followers alike.

Aye; I recall reading your blog post series on Transforming London Milongas, especially the third post.

The first post actually did spur me on to invite more unknown dancers despite a severe lack of confidence, especially when I was still recovering from a bout of Covid and the consequences of not having danced for two years. Especially if they are visitors to the local milongas - I try to catch their eye every so often.

The third post was of much more interest, however - I've been helping out the university society I started tango with, and we're still trying to get our numbers back to pre-pandemic levels. Naturally, this meant that there is a lack of leaders. We do switch roles often from the very beginning, and we try to make sure that newcomers know that they can learn and focus on any role they want, regardless of anything.

And, well, there's still many experienced followers who refuse to dance with beginner leaders until they've been dancing for at least a few years. Giving beginners a taste of what tango might be like, a taste of what draws us back to the milongas, is a major factor in retaining dancers. There's only so much I can do as a leader to encourage beginner leaders, to share their frustrations and to help with issues.

Dancing more with unknown dancers, having more women leaders, and other such actions might help, but it is a stopgap at best, and in the end, we still need to work towards getting more men into tango.

Apropos of that, are you still working on that "micro documentary" mentioned in that post?

 

[TTanguero]

Apropos of that, are you still working on that "micro documentary" mentioned in that post?

Sadly I didn't get enough interest to make the original concept workable, but I do still intend to produce something – I just need to figure out exactly what.